"When forced to summarize the general theory of relativity in one sentence: Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter. ... Physical objects are not in space, but these objects are spatially extended ... thus the concept of particles cannot play a fundamental part, ... and can only appear as a limited region in space in which the field strength or energy density are particularly high."
(Albert Einstein, Metaphysics of Relativity, 1950)
"It is my firm belief that the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be characterized in history as the dark ages of theoretical physics. ... The quantum world is a world of waves, not particles."
(Carver Mead, Professor Emeritus at Caltech. Received $500,000 Lemelson-MIT Prize in 1999)
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Rob Peritz
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Colorado/Alaska
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: Why such a Simple Theory was Never Imagined |
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The following quotes from Geoff Haselhurst can be found on his main website. http://www.spaceandmotion.com
I find these quotes to be a must read for all those who are new to this forum.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Past Errors of 'Particles' and 'Forces' in 'Space & Time'
On Why such a Simple Theory of Reality was Never Imagined nor Considered
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I imagine that many readers will wonder why (with justifiable skepticism) such a simple theory of reality was never considered. This is valid skepticism as certainly there have been many great thinkers who have devoted their lives to this problem of truly describing reality, and so it is reasonable to expect there to be reasons why this really very simple idea of the Spherical Standing Wave Structure of Matter in Space was never considered.
Now I agree that the reader must be skeptical of such a fundamental claim as the discovery of Reality. As Nietzsche suggests, Do not allow yourselves to be deceived: great minds are skeptical. In fact great minds are open to new ideas which they skeptically consider to determine their truth and validity.
I think that the following three reasons largely explain why this Wave Structure of Matter (WSM) was never considered;
i) Our minds are not pure and logical (as we sometimes like to imagine) but rather, fallible and emotional. Most people, including scientists, are not driven by truth, but rather by pleasure, pain and survival, thus our efforts are often directed towards money, food, shelter, fame, sex, etc., rather than to truth. True Philosophers are rare creatures it seems.
ii) We are social animals, and as commonly observed, rather herd-like in our beliefs and actions which are strongly held once formed. Thus the famous beliefs from the past greatly affect and limit our thinking as Kuhn explains; Almost always the men who achieve these fundamental inventions of a new paradigm have been either very young or very new to the field whose paradigm they change. ... scientific training is not well designed to produce the man who will easily discover a fresh approach. (Kuhn, 1962)
History shows that we are very easily misled by the beliefs of others, that as said above, we are rather herd like in our thinking, and those new to the herd are, initially, more likely to see things differently.
iii) This further relates to the fact that certain famous beliefs, which are in fact wrong, have evolved within Modern Physics and Philosophy for thousands of years and have continually influenced and misled us. As Bertrand Russell correctly observes;
Most sciences, at their inception, have been connected with some form of false belief, which gave them a fictitious value. (1946)
The three most significant 'false beliefs' of both Physics and Philosophy, are the assumed Existence of 'Time', 'Particles', and 'Force Fields'. (Most significantly, the concept of the discrete particle dates back thousands of years and has deceived and confused us with its resultant paradoxes and absurdities, and unfortunately, has limited our ability to think differently.)
(Haselhurst)
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| Quote: | Quote:
The Three Main Purposes of the SpaceandMotion.com Website
i) To allow people to understand what Reality is, thus to have an absolute foundation for working out the Truth. This allows us to solve many of the problems of Physics, Philosophy, Metaphysics and Theology (and there are many problems caused by the current particle conception of matter, as modern academia well realises).
ii) To realise that the world we experience (our senses, which are a representation of the mind) are incomplete and deceptive. That when we see things as being separate and discrete (like the human body), this is an illusion (naive real). In Reality matter (and thus humans) are structures of the universe, thus we are all subtly interconnected not only to the world around us, but to all other matter in the universe. This explains the foundations of the ecology of life on Earth, and why the preservation of Nature is critical for our future survival.
iii) To share this knowledge with others such that many people can work together to correct past errors both in human knowledge, and in human society, and thus contribute to a better future for Humanity. (Haselhurst) |
Last edited by Rob Peritz on Wed May 16, 2007 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chenbagampillai
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 11
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Sirs,
We are in worldly life. In our mind, the world that is our earth is looked like a great thing of universe. And, we are thinking that we are the only intelligent people in the universe.
In Bible Jesus said that you can never serve God and mammon. The real meaning of the above word is that there is a big difference in worldly life and the knowledge of universe in general. Our mind is attracted by this material world and it is very difficult to come out of this illusionary things. It is a natural tendency of mankind. So the ancient scholars’ preferred a simple life, mostly lived in a thick forest or high mountains , even Gouthma Buddha came out of his luxurious Palace life and his loved wife and children after realizing as that it is not the real one. No ancient philosophers had urban life. But now we need not follow them to understand the above ‘Reality’ through renunciation. We have got the great opportunity to read their words and it is more than enough to understand the ‘Truth’. They have given us many books, paintings etc, to understand the true knowledge of universe, life and everything.
Even the true knowledge of universe is existing in this site itself through ancient scholar’s paintings, words etc,.
What we want to do is to concentrate on these things with patience.
Quran says that ‘He (God) has given enough witnesses in his every creation – objects – whether it is living or non- living things. If you (mankind) have enough sense then you can realize it through my witnesses. But you are in worldly thinking.’
In Bible, Jesus said that I am telling you what I have seen and witnessed about my Father but you do not believe me.
And, He said that I am telling about our Father but you are thinking about your father.
Every scripture has the true knowledge of life and universe in an indirect form.
But they did not give it openly to the readers.
Truth is bitterness. Yes it is against our worldly life.
The ‘Truth will disturb our joyful life in this world. So they did not openly give us, but as proverbs.
So our duty is to understand their words with the common sense. We have ample opportunity to compare the ‘Truth’ with modern facilities.
Thank you. |
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Steve Anthony
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Helsinki
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Truth reveals itself when the time is right...When we have evolved enough to be able to see it.
Most of us are playing 'catch up' to the 'Jesus's' and the 'Buddha's', the 'Mohammed's' and all the other 'seers' of our history. But this time will happen. People will catch up, should they give themselves the appropriate Space for contemplation. Holding back this tide of Truth are a few 'king Canute's' who still believe themselves to be something 'special'; still believe they have 'control' over the greater will of Space and its ongoing quest for self-awareness.
Embrace the Space! 
~§~ |
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nigel
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 54
Location: The Red Centre
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Hi chenbagampillai
I enjoy your posts. I would like to respond to a couple of your points.
Firstly dont forget about science. It is time for us as a species to stand up and take control of are own lives. Jesus was a great guy but as to what he said and meant well to quote from one of my favourite films [1]
"I dont trust no words written on no paper".
One of my favourite Jesus qoutes is "the truth shall set you free".
Truth can come from science through experiment. At the moment science is dominated by ideology, in Steves original post he pointed to some quotes from Haselhurst which point to some of these dominating ideas. However the great thing about science is that if we can think of an experiment that produces evidence that contradicts or negates those ideas and these experiments are reproducible, those ideas will fade and science will move on.
Admittedly this can take a long time however it will happen. This can be seen in the predominance of quantum mechanics in the latter half of the 20th century.
The problem with religon appart from the fact it will probably leed us to armageddon is this idea we must follow the leader, there is a Joke " I am the Son of God as when I pray I talk to myself", however the cult dynamic shows how strong the herd mentality is still in our genes. We need to move on from the need for a Messiah and start to finally take some responsibility for ourselves and our planet. So I give you this truth chenbagampillai "science will set you free".
Nigel
[1] Dead Man Walking: starring Jonny Depp and William Blake |
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Aireal
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Mayfield, Kentucky. U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Single-mindedness
One track thinking is a big part of the problem.
A good example is a show I saw recently about the last great extinction of large mammals during the last ice age.
Three competing theories were examined, named Chill, Kill, and ill. All of the scientists are so absorbed in their own pet theory, they can not see how they all are interconnected.
Chill states that the cold was to much for the mammals to adapt to the changes. Kill blames over hunting by early man, and ill that disease did them in. In truth it was most likely the combined effect of all of this.
The chill decreased the area of habitat for all, and reduced the food supply. This caused over crowding, over grazing, which weakened the animals. This caused disease to spread easily among the weakened herds. The overcrowding and reduced range also made hunting by man much easier.
So all of these had a factor to play, but the scientists are so absorbed in their favorite version that they try to disprove the other theories to make theirs look better.
The same is true of physics and the other sciences. Full of single-mindedness and one track thinking.
Charles |
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galaxy*19
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Clouds
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| nigel wrote: | Hi chenbagampillai
I enjoy your posts. I would like to respond to a couple of your points.
Firstly dont forget about science. It is time for us as a species to stand up and take control of are own lives. Jesus was a great guy but as to what he said and meant well to quote from one of my favourite films [1]
"I dont trust no words written on no paper".
One of my favourite Jesus qoutes is "the truth shall set you free".
Truth can come from science through experiment. At the moment science is dominated by ideology, in Steves original post he pointed to some quotes from Haselhurst which point to some of these dominating ideas. However the great thing about science is that if we can think of an experiment that produces evidence that contradicts or negates those ideas and these experiments are reproducible, those ideas will fade and science will move on.
Admittedly this can take a long time however it will happen. This can be seen in the predominance of quantum mechanics in the latter half of the 20th century.
The problem with religon appart from the fact it will probably leed us to armageddon is this idea we must follow the leader, there is a Joke " I am the Son of God as when I pray I talk to myself", however the cult dynamic shows how strong the herd mentality is still in our genes. We need to move on from the need for a Messiah and start to finally take some responsibility for ourselves and our planet. So I give you this truth chenbagampillai "science will set you free".
Nigel
[1] Dead Man Walking: starring Jonny Depp and William Blake |
Yea, it's all about creating falsifiable experiments that are reproducible.
The more people that can even 'do the experiments themselves' would be widely convincing as well. For example, we can all drop bowling balls and feathers and see which has a greater acceleration towards the Earth to test modern physics. Testing things at home in the quantum level requires more ____ experiments. |
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Tim Bourke
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: Space Concept |
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Hi,
Why is Space a more acceptable starting point than Time, Particles or Force?
Also I believe the movie was "Dead Man" starring Johnny Depp as William Blake.
Thanks,
Tim Bourke |
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Rob Peritz
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Colorado/Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Hi Tim,
You asked; | Quote: | | “Why is Space a more acceptable starting point than Time, Particles or Force?” |
I copied and pasted this short quote from the spaceandmotion website.
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Cosmology-Big-Bang-Theory.htm
| Quote: | “How these questions are answered will shape not only the history of science, but the history of humanity.
The emerging revolution in science extends beyond cosmology. Today the study of the underlying structure of matter, particle physics, is intimately tied up with cosmology- the structure of the universe, theorists argue, is the result of events in the first instants of time. If the Big Bang hypothesis is wrong, then the foundation of modern particle physics collapses and entirely new approaches are required. Indeed, particle physics also suffers from an increasing contradiction between theory and experiment.
Equally important, if the Big Bang never occurred our concept of time must change as well. Instead of a universe finite in time, running down from a fiery start to a dusty, dark finish, the universe will be infinite in duration, continuously evolving. Just such a concept of time as evolution is now emerging from new studies in the field of thermodynamics..
The only test of scientific truth is how well a theory corresponds to the world we observe. Does it predict things that we can then see? Or do our observations of nature show things that a theory says are impossible? No matter how well liked a theory may be, if observation contradicts it, then it must be rejected. For science to be useful, it must provide an increasingly true and deep description of nature, not a prescription of what nature must be.” -Geoff Haselhurst |
There is plenty more where that came from. Here is another that might help it is a bit longer but worth reading if you are searching for answers.
| Quote: | Past Present and Future and the One Way Direction of Time1. Eric Lerner perfectly explains this important problem of why Time must be directional, contrary to the laws of modern particle physics;
This is one of the deepest paradoxes of conventional physics today. According to all the laws of physics there should be no distinction between past and future, no direction to time. Since the second law says that entropy necessarily increases with time, and thus the past and future differ, the second law, too, is contradicted.
In relativity theory, for example, time is simply the fourth dimension - there is no more difference between past and future than between left and right. There is no flow of time: all the equations would look the same if time were reversed. Nor is this true of relativity alone. Newton's laws and the laws of quantum mechanics also are what physicists call 'time reversible'; they define no unique direction for time. If one were to make a movie of two billiard balls colliding, for example, it would look just as credible if it were run in reverse.
But in the real world, there is a difference. If it is two raw eggs that collide and break in the movie, it would look absurd in reverse. The two eggs would assemble themselves out of a puddle and roll off. In the real world babies are born, never unborn, they grow up, never down, and eggs are scrambled, never unscrambled. These processes are all irreversible: time moves forward, toward growth or decay.
Hence the fundamental question: If 'the laws of the universe' have no direction in time, why does the real world? Why do laws like the second law, which have a direction for time, work?
The conventional answer to this question is, strangely, the Big Bang. The Big Bang started the universe off in a highly orderly and regular state- a 'perfect' state of very low entropy. Since the universe must run down through states of increasing disorder, closer to equilibrium (the state in which there is no flow of energy), the direction of time is defined. Time is just the direction 'away' from the Big Bang. If there was no Big Bang, there would supposedly be no difference between past and future. The universe would be at equilibrium, and no event would diminish past from future. But the unique event of the Big Bang, so symmetric in space, creates an asymmetry in time.
Thus, if there was no Big Bang - as seems to be the case - we have further questions: Why does time move forward? Is there a difference between past and future, or is it, as Einstein believed, merely a persistent illusion?
The importance of the answers extends far beyond their role at the center of a consistent cosmology. They strike at the heart of some of the greatest mysteries faced by science, philosophy and religion - the questions of the nature of human consciousness, the relation of mind and body, and free will. The distinction between past, present, and future is basic to our experience of consciousness - we are conscious in the now, we remember the past, but we cannot know the future. It also is central to our idea of free will, for it implies that our actions in the present affect the future, that the past is fixed but the future can be changed. How can these ideas be reconciled with a concept of physical laws in which past, present and future all exist equally and cannot be distinguished?
The problem of 'reversible time,' then, arises because scientists improperly abstract reality and believe their highly accurate equations to be absolutely, infinitely precise. It is reversible time that is subjective, an illusion, not irreversible time. The real world is continually coming into existence, created by an infinitely complex web of instabilities and interactions. As Prigogine puts it, 'Time is creation. The future is just not there.'
Time's irreversibility is based on the continuity of space, on its infinite divisibility. (Lerner, 1991)
Once we realize that it is not Time but wave Motion which is fundamental, then it becomes obvious why Time is directional. If we apply this understanding of Time to Matter as Spherical Standing Waves in Space, this then leads to the following explanation of Past, Present, and Future. As it takes Time for the In-Wave to flow into its Wave-Center, thus the In-Waves are the Future, and in time will meet at their Wave-Center (the Present) and after flowing through the Wave-Center become Out-Waves (the past). This is important for it explains why Time is directional because the Wave Motion of Space is Directional, i.e. In and Out Waves travel in Opposite Directions relative to the Wave-Center (Present). |
~rob |
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galaxy*19
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Clouds
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: yes, thanks Rob |
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one quick thing:
"but we cannot know the future
"
Can you disprove precognition? Perhaps I would rephrase: the future cannot be known as precisely until it becomes the present.
--> While I was reading the second quote I was not only envisioning this for time, but space through it's connection to time in spacetime as this:
| Code: |
Me
a person stands in the center
of the Wave of MY personal and subjective Perception.
I
experience things at a PRESENT moment = NOW --
because that's when the In-Wave of the future
slaps me in the face, only to be deflected |
and sent back OUT as an OUT wave into the PAST.........
Perhaps in an instant I smiled,
and seconds later it made you smile
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Can you see it? ;) |
G* |
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Tim Bourke
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Prigogine |
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Thanks Rob,
I'm glad your quote mentions Prigogine as I read his work with great interest - I think his "From Being To Becoming" and other works are one good way of starting to understand why it could be erroneous to imagine the "ultimate" physical reality as particles, anyway they helped me!
As for knowing the future, every time I think of an action beforehand and carry it out, I know the future beforehand in the best possible way - that may seem trivial at first but perhaps it isn't so trivial.
I agree that Einstein's position that the flow of time is an illusion seems absurd and I don't feel it's valid myself. Are you implying then that time is an emergent property of space? How does that come about?
And I still wonder about the little matter of free will... is it real or not?
Regards,
Tim Bourke |
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Steve Anthony
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Helsinki
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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HI Tim,
| Quote: | | Are you implying then that time is an emergent property of space? How does that come about? |
'Time' is a mental construct that we use to describe the changes we observe. We are 'emergent properties of Space', and this is how it 'comes about'. We invent it as a measuring device.
'Free will' is also an emergent property of Space, that emerges through us, as inner extensions of the Space that came before. Evolution. Thus, we have evolved a limited 'free will'; we can make choices, judgments and decisions that we could not have done, say, a million years previously. And I am not saying that this is always a 'good' thing!
| Quote: | | Why is Space a more acceptable starting point than Time, Particles or Force? |
Space is the One thing that exists. All other (finite) 'things' are consequential, due to its movement.
Hope this helps.
Steve. |
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Rob Peritz
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Colorado/Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Tim,
You wrote; “And I still wonder about the little matter of free will... is it real or not?”
The Spaceandmotion website has several pages on the subject of free will and determinism. You can find it here.
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Free-Will-Determinism.htm
Some of what you can find there I copied and pasted into this post.
| Quote: | “The problem of whether Humans have free will or whether all our actions are pre-determined and our apparent free will is simply an illusion is profoundly important to Humanity, for the answer to this question will tell us whether we can determine our own future, and whether the concept of Morality actually exists (for if we had no free will, then there could be no such thing as morality!).
The solution is quite simple though and can be easily understood with the aid of the following example;
Let us take a normal pack of playing cards (52 cards - 13 Hearts, Diamonds, Spades, and Clubs) and I shall place the Ace of Hearts face down on the top of the pack.
Thus I am both necessarily connected to the Ace of Hearts (as I am to all matter in the universe) and I have pre-determined knowledge of the exact card, thus I can be certain that if I turn the card over it will be the Ace of Hearts. So we see that while I have complete knowledge of the system then there is no chance involved - the system is both necessarily connected and pre-determined.
Now let us further imagine that I place this pack of cards in front of someone else who has no knowledge of the fact that the Ace of Hearts is the top card. So while they are still necessarily connected to the top card (Ace of Hearts) they do not have pre-determined knowledge of this card, thus if I ask them to tell me which card is on top of the pack they only have a one in fifty two chance of guessing correctly. Thus we see how chance exists when we do not have pre-determined knowledge (even though we are still necessarily connected).
Further, in a necessarily connected but non determined universe, there are many possible futures (within the constraints of the properties of Space and the waves structure of matter - we can't flap our arms and fly!).
If we now apply this knowledge to the matter of brain and body (which is the cause of our human mind) we realise that while we are necessarily connected to the other matter in the universe, we can never have pre-determined knowledge of the motions of this other matter (as explained above due to the system being infinite) thus explaining how chance (due to lack of pre-determined knowledge) exists in the universe. Hence evolution of our brain and mind can use this chance to allow us to creatively think of new and novel ideas and relationships that we can then remember, and then we can use chance again to select from these various chance relationships to determine actions. Now while this is a very simplified explanation of how our mind works, and there may be millions of ‘‘layers’’ to these chance selections, each with various degrees of probabilities for selecting different outcomes, nonetheless the principles are true and do explain how lack of pre-determined knowledge in a necessarily connected Universe within an Infinite Space allows chance and limited ‘‘free will’’.
A simple example of this process can be found when considering a game commonly found in fairs, where there is a clown's head with open mouth that is rotating backwards and forwards, and you must drop a ball and try and get it to land in a certain slot. Depending on the time that you drop the ball ultimately determines where it will land. But all options are possible, and if we use this chance (due to lack of knowledge, as explained above) to determine when the ball is dropped, then we realise that we are using chance to decide on the future of the universe.” |
The following quotes I've added to help you understand the Wave Structure of Matter and the Dynamic Unity of Reality. Again, they are copied and pasted from the SpaceandMotion website.
| Quote: | | Currently Physics (and thus all human knowledge) is founded on the concepts of particles and forces in Space and Time, which assumes the existence of four separate things. This causes many problems for Humanity because the necessary connection between these things is unknown. The Metaphysics of Space and Motion and the Wave Structure of Matter (WSM) solves these problems by describing Reality in terms of One thing, Space, existing with the Properties of a Wave Medium. Matter is formed from Spherical Standing Waves in Space which cause the 'particle' effect at their Wave Center. Time is due to the Wave Motion (activity) of Space. Forces are caused by the interaction of the Spherical In and Out Waves with other matter in Space which changes the location of the Wave-Center (and which we 'see' as a 'force accelerating a particle'). |
| Quote: | The Three Main Purposes of the SpaceandMotion.com Website
i) To allow people to understand what Reality is, thus to have an absolute foundation for working out the Truth. This allows us to solve many of the problems of Physics, Philosophy, Metaphysics and Theology (and there are many problems caused by the current particle conception of matter, as modern academia well realises).
ii) To realise that the world we experience (our senses, which are a representation of the mind) are incomplete and deceptive. That when we see things as being separate and discrete (like the human body), this is an illusion (naive real). In Reality matter (and thus humans) are structures of the universe, thus we are all subtly interconnected not only to the world around us, but to all other matter in the universe. This explains the foundations of the ecology of life on Earth, and why the preservation of Nature is critical for our future survival.
iii) To share this knowledge with others such that many people can work together to correct past errors both in human knowledge, and in human society, and thus contribute to a better future for Humanity. |
You should spend some time Reading at SpaceandMotion.com You may be surprised at what you find there.
~rob |
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