The mind of space

[Steve Anthony]

Hey NJ, hope it helps!

[nisarga]

Hi NJ/Cosmos

On another thread you said,

'It is certainly conscious through our consciousness as forms and images of this space wave medium, but as to weather or not the medium is conscious of itself prior to evolving creatures such as ourselves is in question. With all of this complex wave interaction taking place in the universe, there is for sure a system of information exchange taking place as all of the ssw's are sending outwaves to and from one another. But this is not life, or consciousness according to the wsm interpretation. I've tried to push the issue, but the interpretation remains the same. Space is neither alive nor conscious as it seems, but it has the ability to become both alive and conscious by forming repeating wave patterns, that can become repeating replicating wave patterns, that can become repeating replicating intelligent wave patterns, on a planet that is comprised of all of the above requirements. That's the official position. I'm still looking at every possibility however, as any truth seeker should do. Check out the progression of my thread and see what you guys think about it? '

I see this as 'cosmos and chaos'.

You know that cosmos means order. And I see 'order' as intelligence where the root meaning of intelligence is defined as:


1390, "faculty of understanding," from O.Fr. intelligence (12c.), from L. intelligentia "understanding," from intelligentem (nom. intelligens) "discerning," prp. of intelligere "to understand, comprehend," from inter- "between" + legere "choose, pick out, read" (see lecture). Meaning superior understanding, sagacity" is from c.1430. Sense of "information, news" first recorded c.1450, especially "secret information from spies" (1587). Intelligent is a 1509 back-formation; Intelligentsia "the intellectual class collectively" is 1907, from Rus. intelligyentsia, from Latin. Intelligence quotient first recorded 1922 (see I.Q.).

Specifically: (my definition) Intelligence means the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge and information. And the root meaning of intelligence is: intelligere to perceive: inter-, inter- + legere, to choose

In this light to me intelligence means 'order' as 'seeing is doing'.

Then I feel your exploration can be reworded as 'is there order in chaos' and the folks who explore Chaos Theory have demonstrated that there is order in chaos when they explore things on a grand scale. And this is demonstrated in the fractal nature of things as the 'order' that shows up on scales of things like shorelines and patterns in clouds, etc.

And the only way that order can be understood is through the contrast of dis-order. This means that the couple cosmos-chaos are themselves an 'order' that reflects the essence of the Binary Universe that we speak of as being in Dynamic Unity (the complimentary partners that together form the binary unit; like two sides of a coin).

The Dancer IS the Dance.
The Quest is the Question.

If all there was was cosmos-order how would you know?
Order has meaning through dis-order.

Similarly - if all there was was chaos-disorder how would you know?

Now your question can be presented again as: "Throughout evolution was there a period/periods when there was either complete order or complete disorder?"

And the definitive answer is "I don't know" and yet this can be understood through 'wisdom' as follows:

'This statement is false'

When you explore the statement above in the realm of knowledge to determine wether it is 'true' or 'false' you enter an endless regression-progression wherein 'if it is true it is false', and, 'if it is false it is true'...

This reveals the paradoxical nature of self-referential questions when they are explored in the realm of knowledge. When you see that this is their nature the 'seeing' (understanding) of this is wisdom.

Your original question/exploration is of this nature. If you explore it through knowledge you will find that it is endless (knowledge is unlimited because you can always add more, whereas wisdom is limited because truth is One).

In this way the 'Living Answer' to your question is 'I don't know'. Please be clear that this does not mean 'I don't know, now tell me the answer.' as that is within the realm of knowledge - rather it is the experience of 'I don't know'.

The experiential answer as 'I don't know' means that you are no longer seeking an answer (your bodymind continues to receive in-waves as others generate out-waves yet these do not impact you because you are no longer within the realm of the 'known') - you haven't lost consciousness and You are One with Space.

And you can let the question live - thus the Quest is the Question is the living answer.

There are two 'times' in daily life where/when you are One with Space: 1) periods of deep dreamless sleep, and 2) when you are astonished (and related experiences).

In deep dreamless sleep there is 'order' as your bodymind's natural activities yet 'you' are not 'aware' at this time and there is an 'after-taste' of the restful benefits of deep dreamless sleep.

When you are astonished the same order is present as the activities of your bodymind and although 'you' have been 'blown away' a memory of the event is recorded.

If you attempt to capture these experiences and render them as 'knowledge' you will fail because they are not something that can be 'known' - they can only be when 'you' are completely absent.

Lastly you said [in part] 'weather or not the medium is conscious of itself prior to evolving creatures such as ourselves is in question'... I see your statement as separating the 'medium' and 'ourselves' whereas it is really self-referential (since we came [evolved] out of 'it' we are a made up of 'it').

From the comments above - Do you see that in the natural 'order' of things that there are 'times' when the 'knower' is absent yet information is recorded? And simultaneously there has to be chaos for 'order' to have meaning?

I feel that your question/exploration is unanswerable in the realm of knowledge yet it can be understood in the realm of wisdom as the spirit~nature of 'what is'; what I have attempted to do is to give you a pointer to that 'experience' (I used my definition of 'intelligence' - I am happy to be corrected by anyone who sees it differently).

~Standing~
James

ps - if you have an ocean pie and cut a slice 'out of' that pie... what is that piece like? then cut a piece out of the piece and ask 'what is this piece of the piece like? and so on... however small you wish to explore - ask what is the piece of the piece like?

Is the piece like its Source?

My comments above are somewhat inspired by the wisdom of Socrates who is credited with directing folks to, 'Know Thyself' and 'Nothing to Excess' - the answer is the yoga koan 'Who am I?'

[northjetty]

Hang on a minute James, there is something that comes out of the wsm that I don't know if you've been exposed to yet? As we are considering the 'mind of space' here, through the wsm, I can consider it like this:

non-living waves=information carriers

non living spherical standing wave centers=information givers/receivers

A mysterious emergence of life? (sea floor chemical interactions most likely)

living wave based organisms=information givers/receivers/replicators

living wave based animals=information givers/receivers/replicators/experiencers

living wave based homosapien animals=information givers/receivers/replicators/experiencers/contemplators

Now I wonder whether the children were contemplators or not? Did they think only in terms of experiencing life, without the contemplative homosapien mind set? The whole putting a 'reason' to everything?

When talking about the 'mind of space' we have information exchange occuring on every level here, and the many levels are of one thing existing of course, I hardly need to add that, for that is a given for the wsm. The one thing, space/waves(information) is ever present here. But if mind exists within space, but is not ever present, then mind is but a 'part' of eternal space, not the whole of it, on an ever present level. So as we exist here, there is taking place within our minds, a 'part' of space, each and every level of information carrying, giving/receiving, repeating, replicating, experiencing, and contemplating all at once, here in the 'part' of infinite space that is found within a given body in the space wave medium.

Now the information carrying, giving/receiving has always been occurring because there can be no beginning to speak of. As there is no beginning, there is no first cause, nor reason for space waves to exist. So this translates into there being no "reason" behind the information carrying, giving/receiving of the waves in space as they simply are what exists, according to the wsm. As there is no reason for the waves in space, there is a chain reaction effect that moves from the waves in space, into the mysterious emergence of life, and right into our day to day experiences, as we are images that are made out of waves in space, that have no meaning, or purpose for existing, they are simply what exists.

So if this is truth, then we have a real problem here in terms of the world community accepting the wsm with open arms guys! People are going to reject the hell out this! Atheistic scientists are not the majority of this planet, hence this has little appeal to the majority of the earth's population for a group that is dedicated to saving the planet! Even when this appears to be the absolute truth, and it does indeed appear to be the absolute truth, is this truth going to correct and save the planet? By showing everyone a detailed map of how causeless/meaningless/purposeless the interconnected web of existing waves in space actually is? This is what Rob has been struggling with by the sound of his posts. He is looking for the meaning here. I'm looking for the meaning here, and I suppose that we are unfounded in doing so.

What does any of it matter then? Why save the planet, why strive towards preserving life? We have all said that life is space observing itself from within itself. This is what is happening, yet there's no meaning for it. We have been looking at the 'meaning of evolution' as the goal of space attaining self awareness. But with no meaning, evolution is just what exists, there can be no goal. How then, do we arrive at the conclusion that we are to have the goal of preserving and conserving this meaninglessness? What is the 'meaning' of preserving 'meaninglessness' ? I suppose that I've just answered that question, there is no meaning to preserve the meaningless. So why should any of this appeal to anyone, for any reason? Once again, there is no reason in the whole eternity of a reasonless existing space according to findings of the wsm. whether the earth is here, or isn't here, can have no meaning according to this logic. Now I know that Geoff has thought of all of this, and I have read bits and pieces around here, but what is the logic, once again, in trying to preserve the meaningless, I keep forgetting the deeper I get into understanding reality? This is a grim conclusion for my research, is it the final understanding of the dynamic unity of reality, or is there a happy ending after all, even after all of this comes out?

north jetty/the cosmos/chaos

[haselhurst]

Hi All,

Just a short comment on NJs quote;

[Steve Anthony]

Hi All,

James, nice post from an alternative perspective. I only have one 'quibble'...

[nisarga]

Hello All,

NJ - your very concern is the evidence that there is meaning.

Geoff - Thanks. Yes Lama Govinda is one of the few authentic yogis.

Steve - I liked your comments to NJ about meaning. As far as your quibble that we can never 'know' - as best I can say it - 'being One with Space' is a kind of 'knowing' that is based on 'not-knowing' - it is not that 'learning' has halted.

I make the distinction between 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' as follows: knowledge is limitless because you can always add to it - therefore you cannot know the 'whole' through 'knowledge' because 'your knowledge' is always limited to what you know - and since there is evolution as growth and development 'tomorrow' (if I may use that word) there will be more and greater 'knowledge'.

I call wisdom the Intelligence of Innocence wherein there can be a 'knowing' as described above (and in my earlier post). Yet this knowing is 'complete' as you are 'One with Space' and 'Truth is One' (Truth is also 'Living') - and like Space that has this dynamic quality called 'motion' - the 'knowing' of wisdom is 'Living'.

I feel that only this latter realm of 'knowing' as wisdom is the environment where 'learning' can unfold - everything else is simply re-arranging the 'furniture of mind' (this is nice for a change of scenery and knowledge is quite functional when you want to know your way home - yet the journey 'home' in this 'living uni-verse' is always new-now; the question is 'Can we see it for the first time?').

Living~Space
James

ps - the theme of this thread is the 'mind' of Space... I find it interesting that folks understand what we are speaking about when we say 'mind' yet nobody has ever seen one any more that anyone has ever seen Space.

A short story...

Two men were arguing about a flag flapping in the wind.

"It's the wind that is really moving," stated the first one.

"No, it is the flag that is moving," contended the second.

A Zen master, who happened to be walking by, overheard the debate and interrupted them.

"Neither the flag nor the wind is moving," he said, "It is MIND that moves."


pps. to NJ - you can extract from my comments that in my view Space 'motion' is its 'life';

... note that when one 'measures' 'life', the labeling of it as 'life' generates its opposite as that which is 'not-life' yet the only way that either can be understood is through the other - this means that each will always have some of the other in it (like the yin-yang symbol or a wave as there is no such thing as 'part' of a wave.).

[nisarga]

Hi Geoff,

I'm happy to hear that Karene is involved with Yoga and Chi Kung.

Here is a yoga quote that I feel captures the essence of yoga and one that parallels WSM:

"One who sees inaction in action and action in inaction, is a wise person. Such a person is a yogi and has accomplished everything. " ~ Bhagavad Gita 4:18

I like the name 'Akasa Prana Yoga'.... I see this as Akasa-Space Prana-Motion Yoga-Connection

I call the approach I represent Nisarga or 'natural' yoga. It is centered on Breathing.

In simple terms the practice is explored as 'breathing' poses...

Inhalation moves energy in the directions inward-upward-forward;
Exhalation moves energy in the directions outward-downward-backward;

the practice of reconciling these energy flows is the exploration of discovering a 3D Space of dynamic balance called 'a pose' (asana) that is appropriate for the individual practitioner NOW [although all traditional yoga poses are explored - each is approached unknowingly as if one is exploring it for the first time];

once the pose is established there is a switchover from focusing on the localized Space-Flow to a 'welcoming' of the more global Space-Flow (the space of the room and the flow that is always unfolding). In this way the 3D exploration is within what I call the Dimension of NOW as Space~Flow.

I call the first phase of the exploration 'Making it Happen' and the phase after the switchover 'Letting it Happen' or Concentration and Meditation

(from the quote above 'inaction in action' and 'action in inaction' is 'Meditation in Action' and 'Action in Meditation' as follows:

- at first the Flow is 'inaction in action' or Meditation in Action [here action is concentration as a localized centre 'making it happen']

- after the switchover the Flow is 'action in inaction' or Action [the integrity of the localized space as concentration is maintained as 'holding' a pose - yet there is no one holding it as this 'letting it happen' is the Space wherein the innate intelligence of the organism finds its own balance - like water] in Meditation...

- throughout 'action' is localized Space as Concentration and 'inaction' is Meditation as global Space where 'action' is seen/unfolds).

Yoga~Connections
James

ps - the real beauty of yoga is that it provides a practical means to 'test' things like WSM - the byproduct benefits to health and well-being are an added bonus!

[Bill Back]

Competitive thinking and Creative thinking.

Competitive thinking is limited. Wars are fought because people think there is not enough land, food, energy, truth or love for everyone. Suppose we have a pie cut into 8 pieces and 20 people to feed. Some people may not get pie, or the pie could be divided so everyone just gets a little piece. Either is not very satisfactory.

Creative thinking is unlimited. Creative thinking says let us bake more pies or give them cake. Creative thinking uses the mind to make abundance for all. Creative thinking puts out/in vibrations that are matter.

Man uses completive thinking most of the time. God only thinks creatively. Humans can think creatively.

Perhaps space is the One Mind, (God) with no center or limits. Human’s evolved minds are centers of the one mind. Is evolution the result of involution (complication, waves upon waves upon waves…)?

I prefer not to debate but to share ideas and words with all. When we argue we give power to the other side.


At our family reunion last week I introduced the WSM, DUR ideas. Here are some children and adult replies:
1. That’s Cool!!!
2. You are too deep for me, Bill.
3. You are right…
4. So What? Who cares?
5. So it is not grey, but when you look close it is black and white, like the hair on your head.
6. Did Shakesphere say “There is no good or bad, your thinking makes it so.”???
7. All my friends say that It is all one Thing.
8. Heard you are renting a house in Sky Valley.
9. Boring. Let’s go jump in the water.
10. Most people don’t want to know how it works, even if it can provide new technologies.
11. I don’t even understand how 2 cups and a tight wire can work like a telephone.

Do not let other’s ideas discourage us.
Live, Laugh, Love

[Steve Anthony]

Nice!

I wrote some things down today after pondering these recent thoughts, and they seem to share similarities with some your own sentiments...


Everyday we open our eyes afresh. Why do we then insist that the mind should be any different?

There is no competition when you realise that life itself is the first prize, and you've already won it!

Any Chimpanzee can recognise itself in the mirror. What makes us any different is the realisation that not all mirrors are made of glass.


You're all gorgeous!

Here, have a song...

http://www.badongo.com/file/2121871


~s§s~


P.S. Can Truth have any 'other side', and still be Truth? Creativity of Space is infinite randomness in motion; is 'evolution'; the 'now', or the 'flow' that James, I believe, is referring to?

[Bill Back]

It is now the flow.

[karene]

Hi James,

I have enjoyed reading through your posts at the forum. I know that Geoff has already thanked you for your contribution and mentioned that I enjoy yoga and chi kung - but I wanted to personally say hi!

I agree with many of your thoughts.

'the real beauty of yoga is that it provides a practical means to 'test' things like WSM - the byproduct benefits to health and well-being are an added bonus!'

I have been practicing yoga and chi for only 2 years or so, but find connections with wsm very exciting and beneficial. Yoga is a space for me to focus and cultivate a larger sense of self ('where does my body end and space begin?').
I particularly enjoy the movement, stillness and fluidity of chi kung. Through my experience, it is more of a gentle dance than yoga.

Your thoughts on breathing (not breath) were very interesting to me. I will take away what I have read today, play with my practice and write again. I feel I am still quite the yoga novice (though enthusiastic) and I can learn a lot from you.
If you have a webcam it would be fun in the future to do a meditation / yoga practice together.

Namaste,
Karene

P.S. I would just like to remind everyone that James has a fantastic yoga website to check out: http://www.beingyoga.com/

[haselhurst]

I like the name 'Akasa Prana Yoga'.... I see this as Akasa-Space Prana-Motion Yoga-Connection (James)

I agree! And it works perfectly with the wave structure of matter (interconnected wave motion of space).
Cosmic breath,
Geoff

[nisarga]

Hi Karene,

Thanks for your welcome and comments.

And, 'Thank You' to both you and Geoff for this wonderful 'space'.

I don't have a web cam at present - yet I do have a microphone for audio.

Over the years I have developed a number of Guided Relaxations; the feedback that I get from folks is that this is very beneficial. I feel that the reason it is so beneficial is because deep relaxation is a means to connect with Space - in fact the essence of what is say is 'Let Go' 'Allow Space' as I guide folks to relax mentally and physically and I use tone of voice and 'breathing-heartbeat' pacing to compliment the words.

I'd be happy to share this with anyone who is interested.

I live in Canada so if you folks in Australia stomp real hard... stomp once for 'yes' and twice for 'no'

It would be a matter of arranging a time that works for most folks - I do have mp3 versions of things yet something 'live' has a deeper impact.

Namaste'
James

ps - possibly we could begin with just 1 or 2 folks and then offer it to a larger group once any glitches that come up are resolved... we could also do some 'asana' practice - in some ways audio is better for this as folks are able to more effectively 'feel' their way when their eyes are closed - later things can be explored with 'open' eyes.

[northjetty]

This whole " breathing Space " thing gives a good sense of the vibration factor involved in the wsm. This whole massive vibrating act that space is engaged in at the moment, in terms of a spiritual look at it, feels like an observation of something that is living. Now I had picked up on this feeling, and Rob had picked up on this feeling, and perhaps someone else has had a similar feeling. This is the perspective of people who either are, or were affiliated with the judeo-christian religion in some way. I believe that this applies to Rob and myself, as well as some others.

Now someone with a heritage in the Eastern religions would have a far quicker recognition of feeling that way because their religions are always treating the very environment itself as a sacred thing, often a living thing, and this goes on out to the stars and eventually on to transcendence. The Western God is described as a "Living God" quite often as well. This is a mythic motif that goes all the way around the world. So it easy to quickly see the quantum waves in motion, that are carrying some form of information from wave center to wave center, to be very reminiscent of an ' all existing spirit ' so to speak. This is how we've been trained to think from the time that we were children in these religions.

Now having said that, it appears that yes we have a massive transferring of information taking place on a quantum level, but it can in no be associated with an actual living thing literally. As it is not living, therefore it can in no way be conscious, unless it forms a repeating wave patterns, that can persist over time, and therefore move into further repeating wave patterns that can replicate themselves. Now, with replicating repeating wave patterns occuring in an area of a finite spherical universe, a complex system of evolution is at play, and it has used it's potential to bring forth a self awareness by it's own wave properties.

So as we are here knowing that we are nature, we have the ability to say that we are spherical standing wave forms that make nature, that have collected with one another to form every image in an eternally reaching wave medium. "Spirit", is a good form of expression when explaining this act of vibration in a religious, therefore a mythic, metaphorical setting. Now "spirit", refers directly to the waves that move through the medium of an eternal space wave medium. This does not reference unknown waves of any type that we do not know exist, this is a reference to the waves that do exist, and are responsible of the formation of particles such as electrons, which we do directly observe. This " spirit " that is responsible for everything that we observe is very real, in fact it is the dynamic unity of reality itself, active in vibration. Science has in no way disproven a God, or spirit if you will with this discovery, it has simply defined it, as I am seeing.

The God, or spirit that we have sensed all along as we have been evolving, is the magnificent eternally reaching wave medium itself, vibrating and active. It extends to beyond our observable parameter, and in so doing transcends us completely, going on and on. But even though it goes to beyond, it is the very ground and basis of our observable reality. God has always been a symbol for the eternal spirit in the first place, so this isn't 'oh so shocking' for theism's, especially pantheism. Everything that is taking place here on this planet is the life and mind of waves in space. The planet itself is observing the macrocosm and microcosm while we are doing it with our sciences, and with our spiritual senses as well. It is experiencing every experience on every level. This can have religious implications, and they point towards having a realization that you are interconnected to the whole. That is the religious high point, and it is very prominantly seen in the simple science of the wsm. This is a high point in our religious evolutions in my view, because a system of evidence is in play that shows the eternal aspect of our day to day reality.

The argument with the big bang theory by theist's, is largely due to its lack of addressing the real hard questions. What existed before the big bang occurred, and what are we currently expanding into? The answer from science has often been 'nothing', and the religions find this to be unacceptable at best. With the emergence of quantum wave theory in physics, 'nothingness' no longer holds any merrit. Everything is in vibration on an Eternally reaching scale. We observe a red shift in observing distant star light simply because we are observing the direction of waves moving through the medium of space. The universe need not be expanding in the first place, and it is explained simply and clearly as a finite spherical area of space wave interaction, within the grand scheme of an infinite space. No expansion, no boundries.



This is a grand realization for the combination of science and spirituality that was not as pronounced through the big bang theory of evolution. The Eternal, sort of eluded the big bang theory altogether. In the wsm, The Eternal is the most pronounced element at play, hence it is in accord with the basic premise of every system of faith and belief that is to be found on this planet. Even when there is no intial beginning to speak of literally. Even when 'mind' is found to operate in space specifically on the basis of a planet where life is existing. The mind of space, operates through life, and it observes the various wave forms of itself. We are observing motion, and we have named this 'time' But 'time', or motion, is taking place within an eternity. So 'Eternity and time' have an interconnected relationship, and it is the observing human animals mythological 'dream images' that begin to reveal this interconnected relationship between man and the cosmos. This, after going for centuries not being fully understood by the masses, has finally come to our science by way of the " Simplest explanation " for observable reality. The explanation that we are existing within an eternal realm, even while we are here on a planet in a finite area of it. Eternity is happening right now, as Joseph Campbell used to point out time and again, but we often fail to see it.

" The kingdom of the father is spread upon the Earth, but men do not see it "- The Gospel of St.Thomas

north jetty/the cosmos

[nisarga]

Hi NJ

Yes.

life: the experience of living; (in simple terms anything that is in motion as '---ing' is liv-ing - this means every thING as we know that all th-ings are waves in Space; in addition we say that more evolved be-ings have self-awareness as compared to th-ings like rocks - this accounts for the 'experiencer' who is experienc-ing 'liv-ing')

intelligence: the ability to recognize and establish order (see-ing and choos-ing where 'seeing' is choosing)

intelligent life: the experience of ordered liv-ing (orderly motion that 'appears' to choose)


The definitions above are a combination of dictionary dfinitions and my interpretations. I feel that the key to a deeper understanding lies in the latter note: 'orderly motion that 'appears' to choose' and the keyword there is 'appears'.

There is only NOW yet this does not deny evolution.

What is evolution?

evolution: a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage (especially a more advanced or mature stage)

I see evolution as the unfolding of growth and development.

The self-evident fact that growth and development unfolds in an orderly way points to 'choice'; in turn this means intelligence.

What is choice?

choice: the act of choos-ing or select-ing



If the above is true then the question I would like to explore is: Do waves in Space make choice?

Namaste'
James

[Rob Peritz]

Excellent post nothjetti.
I’m hoping that you can figure this out and can then explain it all to the rest of us, soon.

~rob

[Steve Anthony]

I'm hoping that we can all learn to be responsible for our own thoughts, choices and actions, with Truth as our guide. Then we can start doing something positive about our own destruction.

~S~

[haselhurst]

Nice posts guys.

I just received an email on free will vs. determinism - the following is my reply which I think relates to above.

--------------
I think the important thing in the determinism / free will debate is to
realise that determinism requires two things;
1. Necessary connection (read Hume's Problem of Causation, Aristotle's
Metaphysics - on site)
2. Initial conditions.

So really it should be a debate about determinism vs. necessary connection vs. free will

In an infinite space (as WSM requires) there are no initial conditions, so
the system (on the large scale, over a long time) cannot be deterministic.
But it is necessary interconnected (by in and out waves in one common
space).
This then allows the system to be 'free' in that there are many possible
futures. We humans have evolved the ability to remember and relate things, then we can decide how to act (relates to potential vs. actual that
Aristotle also wrote about).

And evolution of human intelligence requires some form of limited free will, WSM confirms this.
Geoff

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Free-Will-Determinism.htm