The change and human affect on the change.

[StupFly]

The change and human affect on the change.

Hi Jonathan,
Sorry for delay in replying, have been very busy catching up on emails after being away on holidays for 10 weeks.
My comments below.
Geoff

Hi Geoff,
Hope you don't mind, once again i need to write a few things down before they quickly disappear from the back of my brain out into the atmosphere and never to be seen again. Please excuse any spelling mistakes or muddled up words.

Geoff - I use Google Toolbar to check spelling in any post i make - or I would seem very stupid!

Would it be true if i were to say - If i found out the cause of ANY event or change then found out the cause of that event and repeated this deduction i would finally come to the first instance of reality? It would be in this instance that the connection was started, and all the other things that followed are just the after math of this one instance, a unstoppable chain reaction of events.

Geoff - That would be true if there was a 'beginning' to everything as the Big Bang theory suggests. However, the Big Bang is not correct according to WSM (and to many sensible scientists like Halton Arp). Space is Infinite (as it must be if it is the only thing that exists).
If you read Spinoza, he writes on this exact subject.
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Spinoza-Philosopher.htm
and also see;
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Free-Will-Determinism.htm

However, life can affect the change, we humans can decide what change we start whether it be insignificant or profound, evil or good, write or wrong (to what we believe). I know little about the sciences, little of religion and little about philosophy, i used to be very skeptical about religion or anything applying to that sort of thing, but now i am confused, i have confused myself. All i need to do is look around, use my senses, wake up, realise.. Why does existence exist? Where are we being held? i am becoming obsessed with this. A structure for life is necessary, i cant just exist here thinking, there must be a mission - an overall reason. I think this reason must be some thing to do with the change in itself and i think that I, as a human tool who has a brain with a conscious ability to affect the change and place new change to grow and spread i and all other human life has a major and most important role to play in affecting the change. I'm just going to stop there for a second and save.

Geoff - I have never understood why a God infers a purpose in life anyway. Seems pretty pointless if some 'big guy' out there can just ignore all the rules of science and do as it pleases.
I think you are onto something. We have the ability to change, ourselves and our future. That is the purpose of life, to decide how to change (limited by the laws of Nature).
In terms of evolution, our purpose is ensure the survival of our offspring. This is why the world seems so great when we fall in love!

May i just share with you a thought..
I just said, in my head.. ' I am a human tool ' .. now, If ''I'' am the human tool, who is ''I''? Is it a second part of my physical form? its like saying .. ''human am the human tool'', why do i use the word ''I''? who am I referring to? How can i explain this better?!1 ... The other day a friend of mine said to me - ''if YOU could be any animal, what would YOU be?'' - i didn't think what animal i would be, but i did think about the question in itself, because the question made no sense whatsoever, how could he say ''if you were''? he is basically saying that if somehow i left this body and was placed inside another body then that's the body i would be in, (i think we know the answers deep down but we just cant discover them) i understand that this is impossible and he was not speaking literally . It is very hard to explain what i am trying to say, but i will not delete it because you might understand it, if you don't please don't think i have lost it, i just find it difficult to explain.. All this is not just chance, it cant be. reality is not a fluke, it makes sense, there must be a divine reason for all this.

Geoff - Well its not just chance, it is laws of nature / structure of universe that cause complex things to evolve. At some stage in our evolution we start to realise that we can remember things, and decide which memories or thoughts to act upon.
And I don't see any merit in the divine reason argument. What is the reason for the divine thing to exist? In fact the question is illogical, if Space is infinite and eternal there is no reason for its existence, it is simply what exists.

I think there are 2 sides to this divine reason maybe.. good and bad .. are good and bad, right and wrong just human conceptions or do they actually exist? We as humans have this ability to change the change or create a change to fit what 'side' we like...

Geoff - Why does god allow evil things to happen to nice people? In the WSM there is no problem of good and evil, it is just the natural unfolding of the wave structure of matter, which we have some small influence over.

I do not believe in any religion, but i am not an atheist, i am an uncomfortable, alienated and confused insignificant being of flesh, blood and water stuck here using a electronic device trying to find answers to my problems by talking to you over the other side this round thing which we decided to call earth, just trying to find some thing to hold that i can trust. But i refuse to believe some thing just for reassurance, i prefer to die still looking for the truth rather than die with a misconception of the truth. I think to be an atheist, or to be some one who takes everything as it is would be ignorant, i suppose some people just don't want to wake up.

Geoff - It was this part of your essay that motivated me to reply! We are not flesh and blood (naive real) but rather, wave structures of the universe, intimately interconnected to all other matter in our finite spherical universe within an infinite space. This to me (and people like Einstein, Spinoza) is the real mystical / religious experience, to use reason to rise above our incomplete senses and understand our connection to the world around us. So Jonathon, according to WSM you are actually about 15 billion light years in size, not a little human body! Is that not a grand thought. Thus those lovely stars are a part of you (so go out tonight and really look at them, think about how you can see them, what you really are!!
Hope you find this interesting.
Smile and laugh at the world sometimes, it is pretty amazing.
Geoff

Sorry Geoff, i got carried away with one thing then that thing went to another thing and then th.... i get into a state where i don't want to stop .. OK, main point was what i wrote at the top.. maybe there is nothing governing the change apart from our conscious efforts, but are all other motion and change just spin offs off the original first one instance? This instance i talk of is not the big bang, for the big bang was again of matter and change, the big bang was the first thing after the first instance. Or at least that's what my latest thought has been.
Thanks, Jonathan
(points of view from anyone would be appreciated)

[haselhurst]

Hi Jonathon
My comments above.
Hope you find it interesting.
Geoff

[StupFly]

Hi Geoff and to all other friendly human life forms.

(please do not block read this, read it word by word - because i have writen it word by word, so more sense will come out of it if it is read word by word)

I do understand what you are saying, that everything is connected to me and you and everyone else and using the WSM even we as humans have a direct connection too each other in a way, even though i do not fully understand WSM, i understand basic and I also think that this is an amazing thing which must have so many aspects to uncover and explore, if things are connected in this way, then that brings about a whole knew look on our seperate existence from one another. I understand that science explains so much and it has provided us humans with solid concepts of whats around us and ourselves.
In every human being’s life there comes a time when they question them selves, they question their being here, it doesn’t matter weather we think of it on a small scale or a large scale, say for instance if you asked your self ‘Why do I have to follow this way of life in a government run system which I don’t even agree with?’ or it could be ‘Where did I come from? Evolution seems like a firm source to go by, so i will choose that to believe’ – well ask your self this question seriously, ‘am I 100% ready to accept that I am an animal, an insignificant piece of complex matter, another piece of meat with no more overall superiority over any other life form on this earth which has a place in this existence over millions of years of the mutation of evolution - and nothing more.' Its strange… we consider ourselves to be so important within our own heads, we have so much going on, we think that we are hear for a worth while reason, and then we say that we are nothing more than biology, nothing more than a theory of science - just to give an answer to it, to fill a gap… many of us are ignorant, to other people we a ignorant and the worst thing is, we are ignorant to ourselves, we don’t want to see things in a certain way so we block it, we refuse it, stop thinking about it, we fill in the gap with an idea or whatever we can just because we are human.
Science and all the different theories i believe are just one way to look at things, we humans can study anything, find out everything about it, look at it inside and out, find out what it is made of, how it works, where it come from, how it is changing.. but isnt this, isnt science just one way of looking at things?....
Science can not say what is motivating existence for it to exist at all.. but maybe one day it will discover this.

Geoff - I have never understood why a God infers a purpose in life anyway. Seems pretty pointless if some 'big guy' out there can just ignore all the rules of science and do as it pleases.
I think you are onto something. We have the ability to change, ourselves and our future. That is the purpose of life, to decide how to change (limited by the laws of Nature).

I was not applying to God, God to me seems again like just a name that was given to somthing without a real answer. I think that the wonder of science, the beauty of mother nature weather we perceive it through our senses or through pen and paper, mathematical equations or just through our very being here and taking part in it, there seems to be many true ways to look at things, science, the WSM and any other theory, even if you managed to proove them 100% correct and true - your still stuck in a cage, we might of figured out the structure of reality and HOW it is existing but we stilll cannot figure reality in itself or why is reality is here in the first place - here i do not think science plays a role, here we must look in different directions, i beleive a change is awaiting to be activated, we just need to wake up and realise that we dont need to look at science in that one way we are looking at.. science seems like the overall study of reality, but i think it is the study of magic. (cannot find a better word than magic to describe what i need to describe).

However tonight i will go out and look at the stars to think more on how we are all seamed together in the web of existence, ill think more about the questions that i cant answer and then ill go back inside and slip back into the world of senses and perceptions and start to think more on the false, overdone, unnecessary (to a certain extent) structure of life which has been created for us by other human minds because overall they don’t understand and don’t know the real thing in which they should be doing, just like all of us. Its raining now so i hope it clears up by night time,

thanks for reading, Jonathan.