Questions About Space and Time and Motion

[Tim Bourke]

Hi,

I'm just trying to understand http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Physics-Time.htm which is about the relation between time and space and motion.

My question is, if I am to imagine a motion in Space, at least as I understand that phrase, then I believe I need to introduce the concept of time, at least when I approach the problem from the conventional point of view used at present in Physics.

All of the WSM equations I have seen use the mathematics of waves and thereby draw upon a body of knowledge which is based upon a mathematical depiction of space and time. You can easily see this by looking at the equations, which always contain the parameter "t" which measures the evolution of the system. For example, t=0 is the initial state, t=1 is the state after 1 second and so on.

Space also appears via the other parameters in the equation (usually labelled x, y and z).

So my question is, if WSM claims that wave motion and space are ultimate and time is derivable from these, what is the meaning of time in the wave equations presented? Am I to see this as related to conventional time as I experience it, or is it something else? If it is related to that kind of time, surely time is then also fundamental to the theory and not derived?

Thanks,
Tim Bourke

[haselhurst]

Physics evolved from Newton's mechanics.

This is founded on the motion of particles in Space and Time
(A Metaphysics of Space and Time)
You need time (and space) for the particles to be able to move.

IN WSM the metaphysics is most simple.
It is a metaphysics of space.
There is no motion of matter particles in space and time
Only the wave motion of space that causes these effects of matter and time.

i.e. The world around you in space is vibrating and thus constantly changing / in motion which we perceive as time.

Time in the equations is used to relate / reference velocity of waves.

You could replace time with any repeating motion - swinging pendulum, a vibrating crystal.

Hope this helps - am very busy so you will have to be patient for replies to your other questions (all good questions).

But you need to let go of old physics ideas - look at the world around you in terms of spherical waves in space - you only see the wave center particles, but the spherical in and out waves explain how everything is connected (dynamic unity of reality).

Geoff

[Bill Back]

I took off my old watch with hands and numbers. The watch I have now just says NOW. Living and thinking of the here and now helps our health and happiness as well as to understand WSM.

Also, we are of space not in space.

Have a great day!
Bill

[Aireal]

Tim Bourke

Like Geoff stated, "Time in the equations is used to relate / reference velocity of waves. You could replace time with any repeating motion - swinging pendulum, a vibrating crystal." Or even the harmonic oscillations of the electron itself.

Quantum theory requires that the frequency of the waves be proportional to the mass in accord with this equation, F = MC^2/H .
Like any good clock, the electron has its own frequency.

The above equation almost screams standing wave. Note the similarity to E = MC^2, thus waves also have energy based on their mass / frequency. There are two waves which create a standing wave center, and they create a perfect clock on the atomic level.

Because all waves have a frequency, they can all be used to mark the passage of time. Time and waves are linked at the most basic of levels.

The In and Out waves of the electron make not only a natural clock, but provide a means of communicating information between standing wave centers. A wave has energy based on its frequency, which is determined by its mass. As a spherical wave expands, this wave energy is spread over a larger area. Thus waves carry information about mass, distance, and direction between standing wave centers.

Talk about efficiency, waves fill a number of roles.

Charles

[haselhurst]

Well said Charles.
Excellent.
Thanks.
Geoff

[Tim Bourke]

Thanks,

I think it is a profound idea, this idea of cycles of repetition - from the very large to the very small we do come across the repeating cycle again and again in seasons, planetary and galactic rotations, phases of human and animal life and so on. So perhaps I am to think of the waves in space as the real manifestation or even incarnation of the abstract idea or principle of time? I am sorry for the awkward use of language, sometimes I find that one has to borrow phrases and images from elsewhere to sustain the thread of an argument or discussion.

Leaving aside time for the moment, I am also interested in understanding the idea that waves in space communicate information about mass, distance and direction between standing wave centers. I wonder if that is an approximate way of expressing the underlying idea which does seem a little slippery to grasp - as I understand it, the WSM idea is that space itself is doing the waving, not something in space.

So if Space itself is waving, the concept I have is something like the "Bumpy Billiard Table" example they sometimes give on TV science shows to explain such ideas as the gravity well, black holes and so on - basically we have the flat, unremarkable billiard table which is then distorted with some valleys and hills on it and we roll a billiard ball across it and watch its irregular path. If we're lucky or have good aim, it gets stuck in a roundish valley for a while and its motion resembles a planetary orbit.

Now, if Space is all we really have and it's waving then I guess I could picture that the valleys and hills are swaying and moving up and down much like some of the standing wave images I'm seeing on the WSM websites. But there is no billiard ball, there are only the hills and valleys (no particles, right?)

So I have the constantly moving waves and valleys which represent something like distortions in space as in General Relativity, perhaps. To add to this, I understand there is a principle of symmetry imposed (spherical symmetry) so that perhaps all reality, all observable events, come about through "breaking" or "violation" of this symmetry - after all, a completely static, symmetrical, unchanging Space universe is pretty unremarkable, isn't it?

Now it has always struck me as a rather unrealistic idea that reality is composed of an almost infinite collection of discrete particles each of which "possesses" its own position in space - after all, how does electron number 1235890 times ten to the power of 63 keep track of the fact that it's now located at 1.589900390... (infinite number of decimal points) in the x direction, likewise in the y direction and so on... is it branded onto the electron somewhere?

So now I find this idea of a wave "communicating" position etc. and it genuinely intrigues me... because it recognises the whole and seeks to acknowledge that nothing is completely separate from the whole of which it forms a part.

But one question that comes to me is, do we need to rewrite mathematics as well as physics to achieve the outcome aimed at here? Because the underlying mathematical picture assumes an (uncountably) infinite number of unobservable points in space.

Perhaps we need a new model of space which acknowledges from the start that something like information has to be "shared" across the whole space, we may not be able to simply start from things like "space is a collection of an uncountably infinite number of points, each of which possesses a unique position specified by real numbers x, y and z".

[Aireal]

Tim Bourke

Waves need a medium to propagate through. In W.S.M. theory that medium is space. A good medium for wave propagation needs to do one thing well, wave energy must move it from its starting position and then it must return to its starting position once the wave has passed. Spherical waves work best with a medium that is good at compression / rarefaction. Rubber is a good example for this. You can compress it or stretch it and it returns to its original shape. Waves move through space, but the movement they impart to the medium is very slight. The medium needs only be distorted 1/2 the amplitude of the wave, or in our case 1/2 the amplitude of the electrons wave. A very small amount of distortion per wave. From a distance, if you could see it, space is vibrating like a large bowl of jello from the wave activity within it, while retaining its overall shape.

That waves communicate position, mass, distance, is at the core of W.S.M. theory. We are all interconnected at the most basic of levels. Besides this basic information, it now seems that waves can carry even more information that was thought possible. Wavelet technology is software that extracts information from just a small section of the wave form. Full pictures have been reconstructed from just the information contained in a few waves. This technology is just starting, but the effects could be profound.

You hit on another important topic also. Most modern physics models assumes an infinite number of observable points in space. This over complicates the math needed to construct a model and obscures reality. With waves changes happen only in discreet intervals simplifing the math needed.

Well I got to go, hope I helped.
Charles

[Bill Back]

I have heard from a lot of teenage students that "Math Sucs". In school I tried to repress the alternate view that 0/0 can equal 1 or infinty. Now I see it as a New Math.

And what about the idea that pi divided into sections can not give you a exact sized piece, OOps maybe I went to far in my thinking again.

Enjoy, You all are on the right tract, and thanks for your answers and questions. It helps to keep my mind alert

[John Martin]

I find it easy to grasp the meaning of time by saying that it is the dimension of history, the difference between state A and state B.

We know that there is an underlying wave structure, but this is not what we observe in ''bubble chambers' or 'collision experiments' and even here we do not observe everything for instance; the movement of '0' charged particles is not observed, it is deduced.

In FQHE experiments, resistance is observed in the form of waves and presumably this in itself is proof that the object (particle) causing the resistance has a wave form; but I have never seen that clearly stated in any of the papers on FQHE. Making sense out of these different observations is hopefully what we are all about.