Intelligent design within infinite space

[haselhurst]

Your logical reasoning seems valid to me.
But the mind is complex - as I have written before, it is very hard to understand how our mind can construct / represent the world of our senses (waves in space) as colors and feelings.
Perhaps it is necessary to consider that space has more than just the properties of a wave medium - I don't know - I do know that we should keep things simple - try to better understand the mind in terms of waves in space before we start adding more properties to space itself.
Geoff

PS - Some nice quotes from Nietzsche for your entertainment / pleasure!

There is nothing more necessary than truth, and in comparison with it everything else has only secondary value.
This absolute will to truth: what is it? Is it the will to not allow ourselves to be deceived? Is it the will not to deceive?
One does not want to be deceived, under the supposition that it is injurious, dangerous, or fatal to be deceived. (Nietzsche, 1890)

What if God were not exactly truth, and if this could be proved? And if he were instead the vanity, the desire for power, the ambitions, the fear, and the enraptured and terrified folly of mankind? (Nietzsche, 1890)

Do not allow yourselves to be deceived: Great Minds are Skeptical. (Nietzsche, 1890)

With the strength of his spiritual sight and insight the distance, and as it were the space, around man continually expands: his world grows deeper, ever new stars, ever new images and enigmas come into view. (Nietzsche, 1890)

UNSUITABLE FOR A PARTY MAN. Whoever thinks much is unsuitable for a party man, his thinking leads him too quickly beyond the party.

The transition from Religion to Scientific contemplation is a violent, dangerous leap, which is not to be recommended.
In order to make this transition, art is far rather to be employed to relieve the mind overburdened with emotions.
Out of the illogical comes much good. It is so firmly rooted in the passions, in language, in art, in religion, and generally in everything which gives value to life.
It is only the naive people who can believe that the nature of man can be changed into a purely logical one.
We have yet to learn that others can suffer, and this can never be completely learned.

For such is man: a Theological Dogma might be refuted to him a thousand times - provided however, that he had need of it, he would again and again accept it as true.
Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed where there is a lack of will.
Fanaticism is the sole "volitional strength" to which the weak and irresolute can be excited, as a sort of hypnotising of the entire sensory-intellectual system.

Nietzsche's notoriety rests upon such singular doctrines as the will to power, the eternal recurrence, nihilism and the announcement of God's death, iconoclastic expression, mastery of aphoristic form and a deployment of contradiction and inconsistency ..
'philosophy without experience is empty and experience without philosophy is blind '

(..from his primary philosophical Leitmotifen) First, reality is an endless Becoming (Werden). Second, as instrumentalist devices language and reason reflect the world not as it is but how our needs require us to perceive it. Third, within religion, ethical codes and scientific practice humanity has institutionalised its values, projected and mistaken them as aspects of being-in-itself. Fourth, the existential predicament is grasped as the imminent risk of having one's belief in reason as a criterion of truth and reality exploded by the unintelligibility of flux and of having, as a consequence, to stare into the presence of nihilism. And, fifth, there is the question of how one can live with a knowledge of the latter abyss.

Geoff - I love Nietzsche - pity he was one of the central figures in the foundation of postmodernism.
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Friedrich-Nietzsche-Philosopher.htm

[northjetty]

I was drawing out several spheres. Each representing a finite spherical universe, with different levels of evolution occuring in each. I was trying to rationalize this further. If our minds do produce waves now, could it be suggested that our produced spacewaves go out beyond our spherical finite universe, to become the inwaves of an undetermined universe? One that has an evolution taking place and recieving our outwaves, as it's inwaves, that produce MIND in that evolutionary cycle? So that it could be deduced that our inwaves, responsible for the evolution of our minds, originated elsewhere in a perpetual system of non-origin where life has always been making spacewaves somewhere? This all hinges on wheather our minds are sending outwaves past our universe into the evolution of other finite spherical universes. Is this valid, or not?

If so, then the evolutionary order is correct. Matter/waves=mind then if we venture further, we realize that our mind, made of matter, sends outwaves that in turn become mind somewhere else in the infinity of spherical finite universes. This speculation really defines the INTELLIGENT factor involved in the perpetual system of non-origin. But it rests on our observation of our wave produced mind, IN TURN producing WAVES. So the order is what they have wrong through post modernism. waves>matter>mind>waves>matter>mind>waves>matter>mind... perpetual?


Geoff, I know that this something that you of all people could see. Has this occured to you? You seemed to have already considered the perpetuation of life throughout infinite space, is this the result of the conclusion?

northjetty/the cosmos

[Rob Peritz]

So northjetty, I do not know if space, in and of itself, is alive, or sentient as we would describe or give attributes to a sentient being existing in space. I don’t know if space, in and of itself, is aware or experiences emotions or anything that we consider to be human traits. But I can speculate that space as the one thing existing has properties of a Continuous Infinite Eternal Wave Medium and perhaps properties of a Continuous Infinite Eternal spiritual medium. For space is where waves interact and matter is developed, and also, where spirits do indeed exist.

We are spirits in a body. Thoughts are constructs of mind and mind is evolved matter but our spirit is something else altogether. But somehow it is all interconnected and is the primary substance that is mostly rigid/slightly elastic. I know that this is befuddled thought but to answer your question of “Have we merely been speculating?” Well yes we have but that is the beauty of being human.

When we stop contemplating existence we will no longer be human. Surely you know how complicated and interconnected this existence is. Everything depends on everything else for its existence if not directly then indirectly somehow. I don’t pretend to know it all or even most of the fundamental, behind the scenes, bare bone mechanics or even the ins and outs of existence. In fact the human mind is not capable of knowing everything knowable about everything. And I’m thankful for that. But I do know one thing, and I know it deep down. We are all made of the same stuff. We are all one together and one with it all.

We are one. This gut feeling is not required to exist. It is not an evolved necessity. It just is. It’s just there. We are one. And I’m not just talking about people I mean we are one with everything. Now I don’t know if this makes space, in and of itself, alive or sentient, or personally involved with the dynamics of reality, but one thing is clear. If nobody is in charge of designing this existence then it is time for us to step up and take charge of our own destiny. On the other hand if there is an intelligent designer or if space itself is the big boss man then there may just be hell to pay.

I'm still contemplating it all, You can't hold that against a guy. Can you?
~rob

[haselhurst]

Hi Guys,
I now think of the human 'spirit' as our unseen connection to 'god' which in WSM is our (hidden) spherical in and out waves in space. (Yes, we must define our words before we use them!!)

To NJ. I think before you speculate on whether our mind / thoughts can effect matter outside our universe we should check that it can effect matter inside our universe.
If it does it is very subtle, as I am unaware of conclusive science studies that show that humans can communicate knowledge to others around them just by thinking.
Yes, thinking does move matter (in brain and body, thus these changes in wave patterns do affect waves in space around us).
But the effects must be very subtle.

I suspect that I pick up on thoughts from Karene and visa verse - as we sometimes say / think the same thing at the same time. But this is hard to prove, our subconscious mind is hidden from us, although it supplies our conscious thoughts.

I think you must be correct that our out waves do flow out to infinity. But they only directly interact (as in resonant coupling / light) with other matter in our finite spherical universe. So outside of the universe the effects are almost infinitely small.

That's the extent of my knowledge on this (for what it is worth).

Geoff

[Rob Peritz]

Geoff ,
I thought you were an atheist? What pray tell has changed your mind?
~rob

[northjetty]

Ok, so minds do produce outwaves, that do interact with other matter in our finite spherical universe. So as for minds producing matter, they can only produce outwaves like any other matter that produces outwaves. But does that have an effect on the local surrounding matter? I have always been able to sense things that were going on in someone elses mind. Like one time there was this ex-minister who had a storage unit that was owned by my boss, a general contractor. I was getting a wierd vibe from this ex-minister. I couldn't put my finger on it, but something wasn't correct, and I became focused on it. Later, I was told to go and clear out his storage unit, because he hadn't payed for it for months. As I was clearing out his boxes and stuff I uncovered pictures of him nude, and of other nude young boys. He also had a bunch of nudist magazines predominately of children. I informed my boss immediately. He informed the state of florida. My boss had told me to take all of his stuff and put it outside of the ex-ministers door. So I did, I put the photographs on the top of the pile. He lived 100 yards from a church/daycare center. His neighbors came out to see what was going on and they could see the photographs. When the police raided his house, they uncovered an online child pornography outfit that he had been involved in. He would get young boys hitchhiking or whatever, and perform sexual misconduct with them. I've always wonderd how I'm able to pick on a "bad aura" from someone else. I've always been able to sense" ill-intent" from afar. So this understanding of the wsm gives me some insight as to what I'm picking up on from the inner intention of others. That's cool, that's a logical explaination as to why that is. I told my boss and the others very early on that I suspected that there was something wrong with that ex-minister. He's probably having the time of his life with all of the guys in prison.




northjetty/the cosmos

[Steve Anthony]

[Rob Peritz]

Hi Steve,
I'm familiar with Hado and I find it fascinating. Something else that is relevant here is that hydrogen is the most abundant element of all. We are mostly water and water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, Now if thoughts can manipulate or communicate with water then thoughts have a connection with hydrogen that has a huge connection with space,,, Waves in space,,, hydrogen... thoughts~~~ intelligent design??? Perhaps space is hydrogen?,,, waves through the hydrogen that is the substance of space forming matter and so becoming the mostly rigid,
/slightly elastic vibrating stuff of space.. Ok I'm rambling but there is something to Hado...

Anyway. Thanks for the link.
~rob

[Steve Anthony]

Hey Rob, all, (I'm going green for a while, hope you don't mind!)

I think it is our own terminology that often throws us off. Language is a strange thing really, like a buffer to meaning, and not the meaning itself. Meaning always has to be interpreted, because it is always a second-hand experience when we receive it via 'language'.

Take the Dolphin, or Water examples, and we can never know what it is to interpret existence via the senses of other entities, as we have to firstly interpret outside information into our way of understanding, and then put the pieces together from our perspective. This all indicates a huge amount of bias on our part, and is far removed from the (other entity's) original experience, which is just as valid in Universal terms (Space experiencing its own infinite forms of existence). We can only interpret in ways that we find acceptable, or usually 'pleasurable', to ourselves. It seems to be all about how other things react, or can be measured, in OUR world, but what a Dynamic Unity professes is One thing, not separate 'worlds' at all. Thus, every kind of experience is just as essential as another, and Space does not need to be ordered, or 'designed' to do this, as everything will happen anyway, at some point, in an eternal yet random system, with achievable 'levels' of Self-awareness.

The Water findings are significant, I think. Water is a great medium for communication, of sound and electricity, and in the Dolphin and Human brains, especially, we need these elements in abundance. Water is also the waviest visible thing on the planet, so if anything should know about its own true structure... Maybe Water itself is the 'evolving organism', the 'carrier' of awareness in the Universe, the 'life-blood' of Space! All this would make plain ol' water the interconnecting medium between what we currently call 'life' and 'inanimate matter'. All the more interesting that we should currently believe all 'life' to have originated in it! (And all the more sad that we should continue to pollute it.)


Then, there's always the 'sacred' approach...

http://www.charlesgilchrist.com/SGEO/Gal1001.html

Or, as a link from the above, the life of Wilson 'snowflake' Bentley. What a great name!

http://www.snowflakebentley.com/


I currently see these thoughts as just as valid, but remain open/sceptical. It's just 'where I am', maan!

Best to you, my friend,

~Steve~


Harmony is a rare and beautiful flower that the heartless try to pick,
but they leave a barren landscape, deserted by the waters of love.

[Rob Peritz]

Hi Steve,
Green is fine it is my favorite color. However Christmas is fast approaching So I shall use red to set the tone when responding to your very interesting and thought provoking posts in green.

Interesting indeed, Perhaps hydrogen is the primordial soup of life and it permeates space like a weed or a virus or a seed or waves? Perhaps only when hydrogen combines with oxygen and becomes water is the evolution of life possible, perhaps not. Perhaps hydrogen, like the human perception of existance, is only the tip of the iceberg? Lets figure this out I say...
Take care my friend,
~Rob

[northjetty]

Hey guys, as I began to understand what the wsm was describing as space being a mostlyrigid/slightly elastic substance, with the properties of a wave medium, I began to see space itself as like water or air. Rather than a void nothing, it being a substance like any other, that is the base for all existing substance. The wave motions throughout sort of like the spirit of space, and our spirit as well. So this talk of intelligence in hydrogen or water is what I had in mind by wondering if the substance of space itself held an intelligent aspect.
Then that would lead to a self aware space, that moves and combines things.

[Lazyman]

Hey all,

What a festive thread!

[Bill Back]

Have you noticed?

"As we communicate with each other the Universe is talking to Itself." Bloopo

The universe is, it was not designed, it is designing.......

[northjetty]

Guys, If space as the base substance for all substance, is a living substance and aware somehow, then all is mind, because all is space. They are definately wrong with the post-modern idea that we are creating the matter around us with our minds, becuse we were not always here to create matter with our minds. The planet existed when we weren't here to dream all of this world up in our heads. But strangely, if the substance of space has it's own mind, even without living beings arriving in the darwinian evolution yet, then ironically all is mind. But there is no solid evidence that the substance of space with the properties of a wave medium, has a mind without evolving itself into livings beings with brains that can self identify. I don't like to throw the baby out with the bath water, concerning some of these post-modern views. I just think that they need to be reworked with a proper understanding of the cosmos. If the day comes that we find that space is aware, then all is mind after all, just through an entirely different perspective than the post-modern.

northjetty/the cosmos

[Rob Peritz]

Hey there northjetti,

Actually, I don't think we know what space itself is, other than the one thing existing with properties of a wave medium. Space has always existed as wave medium and so there has always existed waves in space that form matter and eventually evolve sentient beings who contemplate space. But space could exist without waves or matter or sentient beings but not the other way around. We could not exist without space being a wave medium. My point, is that space, is not a mind. Waves in space can evolve into mind. So sentient beings are a result of waves in space. But space itself is more like spirit or dark energy, or the spiritual realm, or the other side where waves in space form spiritual standing waves whose out-waves resemble spirits, angels and gods.
Still the connection would always have to be space with properties of a Continuous Infinite Eternal Wave Medium so mind and spirit will always exist together
~rob

[Lazyman]

Hey NJ,

[Bill Back]

Relativity has another side. Back of relativity is the absolute, timeless unity, space in motion.

Time and matter are relative. Space, mind & spirit are absolutely the same thing.

Past and future are within the now. Could what appears to be a big bang, be space going into itself?

Are we able to think from an absolute view as well as our individual point of view?

[northjetty]

Hey guys, I was really trying to focus on this mind issue from the perspective of the "mind of the ultimate observer" standpoint. So space, seems like the only ultimate observer from the wsm position. As the only thing that exists, it is in the position of the ultimate observer, but does it observe anything at all? Well as rob pointed out yes, it does through the observation of it's own sentient beings. If these beings have always been around, then I suppose that space is observing everywhere that these beings exist.

Rob, I was thinking about how if the motion of space were slowed down to a hault, then every form and image would dissolve into the one substance of space without motion. Space would be like that still pond, with no ripples. That is what we actually are as far as substance goes. An atom is no more than a spherical outline of the substance of space caused by the wave motions throughout. Then, those outlines that we call atoms, group to form what we are. Since space has always been in the act of self activity, there was never a time when substance was without motion. So the only way that there could be an ultimate observer, observing everthing in infinity at one time would be for the substance of space itself to be observing. So does this say that there is NO ultimate observer?

northjetty/the cosmos

[Steve Anthony]

Hi all,

[Rob Peritz]

Hi all,

[northjetty]

Rob, you never cease to crack me up with those cosmic one liner's.

[Rob Peritz]

Maybe just one more...:oops:

No matter what we evolve into,
or where we end up,
in all of infinite space,
we will always be,
the Intelligent Designer's,
little Homo Sapiens.


~rob

[Rob Peritz]

This is pure speculation and imagination but it may prove useful in discussions with the religious majority. To plant a seed in them and so eventually help them to understand the truth and wisdom of this fledgling WSM theory.

Perhaps, if it were possible to go beyond the finite universe that one finds themself existing in.... and actually be able to manipulate the laws of Space founded on One thing existing, with Properties of a Continuous Infinite Eternal Wave Medium. Perhaps using this reasoning then Gods could exist in space. These would be powerful entities indeed.

Now I surmise that these Gods would know full well their limitations and potential. It is also a possibility that these Gods are responsible and have manipulated the direction of evolution of fledgling sentient beings of a particular finite universe(us). Suppose that is possible for these Gods to show the potential of existence beyond the confines of finite universe to the now evolved sentient beings that they intelligently designed by manipulating laws and properties of infinite space. Perhaps a particular God might even wish to bring these beings out and actually show them a shortcut out of their finite universe before they have evolved long enough naturally to actually become a responsible adult citizen of this strange realm where gods do exist.

Perhaps that is what is happening here on Earth. My question is; Is it intelligent or wise to do this? Why give immortality to beings such as ourselves ? We are a violent and easily confused entity. Can you imagine us as Gods? Perhaps we should stick with this finite universes and this little world until we evolve out of our nasty little habits. I have hope that we will and time is on our side unless we get all uppity and to big for our britches and follow the shortcut laid out to us by a well intentioned but perhaps not to intelligent God.

just a wave
~rob

[philozoi]

Here's a mystery for ya. According to Moore's law we will have by 2020 a computer with the same raw computational power as a human brain. The next year it will be twice as smart and every year after it exponentially increasing as, indeed, it already does. I personally believe that it will be faster than that. Another form of computing, the quantum computer has come quietly on the scene recently with simply unbelievable potential power. A computer of this fashion made of only one thousand atom's, a dot far too tiny to see, would be able to process, simultaneously, 10 to the power of 301 bits of information, thats more bits of information than there are "particles" in the entire known universe. Add one more atom and that ability increases super-exponentially! Most importantly, this is the physical extreme of intelligence/information processing, the actual limit, there is no smaller the processor can get and conversely, no faster it can be. But the fact that its capacity can be so great means near if not total omniscience with regard the modeling and manipulation of quantum systems, primarily for its own improvement and secondarily for the improvement and dare i say perfection, of of most, if not all facets of human life/intelligence and products thereof. This will indeed be a sudden and very giant leap. And now for the punch, with regard mayan enthusiasts, projections for a workable quantum computer of use, 2012.

[Aireal]

Philozoi

Moore's law has been very accurate. Of course that will change when we hit the limits of quantum computing systems. But improvements may still be occur, but not with the speed of advancement as before.

Example, in the early days of computing, I was working on a design for an intelligent computing system that was a combination of digital and analog computer systems. You folks do remember analog computers, right!

The system was modeled on the human brain having two sides with different functions, and are deeply interconnected. The digital side represented the logical and speech oriented side of the brain, and the analog computer side the creative and intuitive side of the brain.

However the miniaturization of digital electronics vastly outpaced those of analog design, so I abandoned the design. Analog computers may make a comeback when the quantum computing limit is reached.

For those of you who do not know about analog computers, they are WAVE based.

Sine waves represent data that can be stored of modified like other data. The wave can have any value, but lets compare it to binary systems. The baseline of the waveform has a value of 0. The top of the wave a value of 1, and the bottom of the wave a value of -1. So even at its most basic level, an analog computer handles one more value than binary systems, treating negative values just as easily as positive ones. One a deeper level, every value between the top and the bottom values are contained in the waveform, vastly increasing the data carrying and processing potential.

New advances like Wavelets, can exploit the data carrying and processing potential of wave forms. I have mentioned wavelet technology here before.

Wave based analog computers could outpace even the best quantum binary computer in the future. We may need to take a step back to advance forward.