Intelligent design within infinite space

[northjetty]

Hey guys, I can see that my terminology has run amuck here a little bit. Obviously space is both capable of being beautiful, and ugly to our perceptions. Lately, I have been focused on this. I will look at people, say a bum walking down the street, and realize that I am the same substance that I am viewing as other than myself. Also, looking at someone who is an entirely different race, and realizing that we are not only genetically one, but materially one, as existing substance. I was just considering the beautiful aspect in my above post's. I'm sorry that some took an offence to that. The girls are very lovely aren't they? Men to me are just not very beautiful creatures. We are hairy brutal and ubrupt at times, a real beast. I wonder why women even find us attractive? I'm just glad that they do, well at least some of them do.

Geoff, I'm of the understanding that we can deduce a multiverse because there must be other matter, beyond our finite sphere of experience, to give us the inwaves that our reality is based on. Likewise or outwaves venture off into the infinite space where they go into other matter outside of our spherical finite experience of an infinite space. This leaves little to no room for doubt about a multiverse senerio as I'm understanding it. On another note, you mentioned that the absolute complexity of information exchange occuring between quantum waves is the cause of evolutionary processes. If the substance is alive, then we can draw a direct link for the source of life to space, our primary substance. If not, then we have a broken connection between ourselves as alive, and our primary substance as not. That disrupts interconnectivity in my view, am I wrong with this evaluation?

northjetty/the cosmos

[Lazyman]

Greetings, galaxy*19,

Ok if I call you 'gal' for short ? ;)

As a new member here, I have a perhaps 'newbie' type question.

You wrote:

[Rob Peritz]

Hi Galaxy *19,
It's good to see you around here again. I enjoy reading your thoughts and I'm happy to hear that you like some of my thoughts as well. Anyway, welcome back. Hopefully we can get some real work done now that the girls (Karene too) are back in town.

So.., I think that you and I may be the only ones here who accept a multiverse as the natural state of the Continuous Infinite Eternal Wave Medium. Personally I think that reason will prevail here and that we will eventually be proven right. If nothing else we need to open our minds to the possibility.
What do you think? Are we missing the boat or piloting the ship.
~rob
PS. Karene what are your thoughts on the multiverse theory?

[galaxy*19]

Sure, G* works too . So long as you recognize i'm no ordinary 'gal', you can call me whatever you want (and so long as it is nice :)

Sorry for not elaborating before, by what i meant by 'multiverse'.
First, some quantum theory has 'proved' a multiverse, that is to say, parallel universes. And i quotate 'proven' because they basically say (and im paraphrasing a lot of Scientific American stuff) that our universe is just one of many universes making up a multiverse. They often depict it as a bubble, amongst many other bubbles. They claim our bubble is 13.7 billion light years or whatever huge, and old, and that beyond this there are infinite other parallel universes, with other versions of ourselves living out other versions of our lives.
I think that they are on the right track here, however i think their dipiction of the 'field' as I refer to it, is still a bit hard to conceptualize.
First to tangent, i could say that whatever occurs in my head is happening in 'my own universe', and since there are more people than just me, each with their own little story going on in their head, constituting a 'universe'.. but we are not defining universe in that way.
Returning from tangent, basically, the 'multiverse' is a way to represent the dimensions of our 'universe' that exist beyond our normal conception. It seems to us to be 'outside' of our universe, because it does not appear to take up any space in our universe. However, it is something (i call it the Field), that is actually intimately connected, (and connects) our whole universe.
THe way i envision it is the place where all that information is stored. Personally i tend to think of it as dark matter, and such, but to not get too far ahead here, and back to WSM representation (sorry for jumping around a lot): i would describe this 'field' as being like the waves themselves. You can't really see the 'waves' of energy that flow between us when we communicate. They exist on the internet, they exist in the air, whatever. You only see the manifestation of these words on the page. That is where you can see the 'wave'. But what about the part of the wave where this thought is transmitted to your brain? The light that travels from teh screen to your eyes and through your brain. Part of the same wave that came out of my brain. Now, what i'm talking about is not any of this in between stage. But the place where the idea resides, that i was able to pick up with and transmit with my brain. I do not believe that the wave originated in my head (thanks tho, if you think it did). And I dont think it stops in yours. I think these waves of infinity are always moving.
And these places/spaces/abstract areas where ideas reside. I think that's what we're not paying enough attention to. These are the other dimensions to our universe, they are the other universes of the multiverse. Multiverse, like universe, is just a word. If everything is all connected and one, it doesnt matter how you compartmentalize it and name it, if you ask me. It's all waves ;)

Hope that answered your question.

[Aireal]

Lazyman

W.S.M. is not yet a theory of everything, much still needs ironed out. Nigel and I have discussed the possibility that scalar waves could originate in higher dimensions, appearing as a sphere in our dimensions. A lot of what we do here is exploring all the implications of W.S.M. We agree on the core concepts, but it must sound quite confusing to those not used to our banter.

So at times I am dry and scientific in my posts, at others I wax more spiritual, and at times I am more practical in its application. but always with the core concepts in mind.

[Lazyman]

G*/gal,

[northjetty]

Laziman, the core issue here is that there must be other matter spread throughout an infinite space, in order for reality to be taking place now. That's the metaphysics of it. Hit this link www.physics-philosophy-metaphysics.com/forum/definitions-and-terminology-of-space-and-motion-vt540.html There must be matter, outside of our spherical erea of experience to send our inbound waves, from out there, to the matter at this' edge' of sorts, of our experiencable area. The waves both inbound and outbound, are of a perpetual nature. According to this, there is no chance whatsoever, that there is not matter beyond our area of experience. It has to be there, for us to be here. But, it is undetermined, so still mysterious in that way. Existing, but undetermined as I've understood it. This is a workshop of very serious thoughts taking place here. I'm really glad that we can tolerate oneanothers constant evolving through the process. Aireal is like the WISE and CALM zen buddhist, as a native american. He was born into wisdom tradition, and he is wise. The core issues here, are what hold everything together. Matter existing outside of our sperical finite universe, is required for this universe to even exist at all. So really the multiverse idea, does apply, but we can't exactly determine the matter outide of our own spherical finite experience.

northjetty/the cosmos

[Lazyman]

northjetty,

[northjetty]

Well, we have people using that word around here, and it is refering to what the matter would logically be doing out there. It must exist, so the term multiverse here is refering to a proposed infinite amount of finite spherical universes all existing at once. So this isn't the multiverse of brian greene, or the string theory membrane concept. This is a spherical concept. The distance that is suggested inbetween the finite spherical universes is beyond current understandings of distance it goes. This is a subject that aireal speaks of. This is what rob is refering to in his post as well. We need visual representation's of these concepts. Artistic renditions that would visually describe this new model, the way that they describe string theory, and the standard model.

northjetty/the cosmos

[Harry Costas]

Hello All

It sounds nice to have multi-universes.
But! some how it seems like a fantasy theory.

I'd rather see the universe as endless and matter distributed at random as we are able to see.

[Steve Anthony]

Hei everyone,

I appear to have opened a 'can of worms'. Sorry, was not my intention!

Geoff would be the obvious authority on this matter, as he has been studying the WSM for the longest, and hence had the most 'contact' with the necessary thoughts that are the consequences of new understanding, and I know that he is virtually convinced. I actually also agree about the 'multiverse' scenario, that it makes the most sense, but just not 100%! When I think about it, I still have questions and 'loose ends'. In my above post, I hoped to make it clear that this was the case.

A new understanding cannot be assimilated into our thoughts overnight, or at the push of a button (something we are getting increasingly used to!). Therefore, I have to give myself the time to do this effectively, and not rush into any 'knee-jerk' decisions, replacing an old 'belief system' with another. For me, this is not Truth. I cannot, and neither do pretend, to speak for others.

If I have a 'belief', it is that I believe we should learn to tread more carefully, and thus responsibly, as individuals firstly, and as a 'species' consequently..

Not everything in Reality makes 'sense' to us; certainly not at this early stage of our development. We haven't physically travelled any further than the Moon, as of yet, and here we are pushing our minds outside of the known Universe! Fun, and also most necessary, but by no means yet a 'fact'.


Here's an opportunity for a new thread on 'the multiverse'.


Best to everyone,

~Steve~

[Rob Peritz]

Hello all,
The conversation here has gotten so far off topic. Still it has been interesting and useful and I suppose should be expected in a forum. Here is my thought on intelligent design.

Knowing the potential of humanity to learn and adapt and our ability to understand our environment and then to utilize what we have discovered to develop our our dreams into reality can you even imagine what we will be capable of if we continue to exist for a million more years? Knowing that a million years is only a fraction of time even in our local solar system, we will still be in the womb of existence, but can you imagine how powerful we would appear to be to sentient beings on other worlds that are at a stage of development similar to where we were a couple thousand years ago? We would appear to be gods! Now I know that this a stretch for our minds but can you imagine what our abilities might be if we still exist in lets say a billion years? By then I would surmise that we would be like gods in that we could manipulate space to the extent that intelligent design would be child’s play for us. Now imagine that there already exists one or more sentient beings who have achieved this god like existence and we are part of their intelligently designed universe. I can only imagine what kind of trouble 'that god’ will be in when an adult gets a hold of him and his little experiment in infinite space. Now that would be one hell of a time out.
~rob

[karene]

Hello fellow wavers,

I have collected the sexuality thread of this post and posted it under the Philosophy of Sex / Human Sexuality section of the forum.

Have added a few comments and will continue to post updates of my work within that section.

Cheers,
Karene

http://www.physics-philosophy-metaphysics.com/forum/human-sexuality-feminism-gender-evolution-wsm-space-vt545.html#2233

P.S. Special note for Steve - It's really great to see you here. I have been sending you and your family positive thoughts and blessings. From my out waves to your in waves...

[Steve Anthony]

Thank you Karene. It gives me great strength knowing that lovely people such as yourself and Geoff are able to find each other in this strange and often disturbing world.

Underlying all this WSM theorising is an even greater Unity of Love. Reality will be whatever it will be, but our evolved capacity for Love will be the thing that keeps us here to appreciate it. I often wonder sometimes whether people 'get it', and then I come across (rare) places such as this, and have to concede that, yeah, I think they sometimes do!

Good on you both, for making me proud to be human. This web-site is the most intelligent thing in the Universe, from my observations!


~Steve~

[northjetty]

So rob, all in all, we are looking at the primary substance of space, mostly rigid/slightly elastic, as an alive entity, in and of itself, here in this metaphysical speculation correct? So that we are here, we are alive, thus space, the mostly rigid/slightly elastic substance, being alive in and of itself, is the direct connection for our being both here, now, and alive.

From there, as this speculation continues, Space as the primary substance, and alive, is a perpetual system of non-origin, thus the origin of life is of a non-origin? Evolutionary processes, have been ever-occuring in this perpetual system of life. All births have been deaths, and all deaths have been births, through such an evolution. This proposes that space, as a living substance, has been experiencing the birth-death-birth cycles eternally. It is both in and out of spherical finite universes. It has the knowledge of each finite universe, because it is the dynamic unity of reality that is involved in the experience of each one of the infinite amount of them. So space/ god, is both an alive, and aware, god/space. The question now is HAVE WE MERELY BEEN SPECULATING ?~~~~~~~ooooooo0000000OOOOOOO0000000ooooooo~~~~~~~?


northjetty/the cosmos

[haselhurst]

Hi NJ,

I am impressed that you are seeking to use simple logic / reasoning to deduce things about reality.

However, to do this requires correct use of language - your concepts must correspond to real things that exist (not just things we imagine). I think you appreciate this.
Now if we apply this to your reasoning about space being 'alive' then there are two things we must correct.

1. You must first define what 'alive' means (or 'life'). This is my attempt.

For something to be alive it must have three properties (as i see things).

a) It must endure over time / wave motions. Thus only repeating wave motions can continue to exist. This is not a problem as the electron being a spherical standing wave is a repeating structure. And this also applies at further levels like repeating wave patterns of an electron in an atom, all the way to repeating orbital patterns of earth about sun, etc.

b) It must be able to interact with its environment (to gain energy). This is one of the strong aspects of WSM as it perfectly explains this interconnection of all things (matter) in space.

c) It must be able to build similar copies of itself (replication / reproduction). The Wave Structure of Matter provides a sensible explanation for this based on resonance and that only certain wave patterns are stable. (Just think of the Tacoma Narrows bridge in USA that resonated apart.)
http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/anm/tacoma/tacoma.html

This definition of life does not include mind / consciousness. That is OK as for example we have no evidence that viruses / simple cells have a 'mind' but they do abide by above three rules.

Clearly then space itself is not alive - but waves in space can be.

So then when we look at your argument you write;

" ... all in all, we are looking at the primary substance of space, mostly rigid/slightly elastic, as an alive entity, in and of itself, here in this metaphysical speculation correct? So that we are here, we are alive, thus space, the mostly rigid/slightly elastic substance, being alive in and of itself, is the direct connection for our being both here, now, and alive."

My correction is that you should not talk about space without including its wave motions. That living things are not just made from space, but waves in space.
So it is waves in space that are alive (not space itself, which is meaningless as there is no such thing as space without waves).

This is important, as it relates to intelligent design.
We can then understand how waves can evolve into complex replicating structures, and from there Darwinian evolution takes hold and provides the 'intelligence' that structures that survive and replicate will become more dominant over time, and continue to evolve.

This is how I see it. I am driven by simplicity, that we MUST not add further properties to space unless absolutely necessary.
Do waves in space explain how living things can evolve? Yes they do.

To me the real problem is explaining the mind, how we represent these wave interactions / senses as colors and feelings etc.

Hope this helps - curious of your further thoughts.
Kindly,
Geoff

[northjetty]

SwPaAvCeEs, is the best image in my mind. I guess that I managed to fail to express that properly, I forgot to convey an important aspect there. As SwPaAvCeEs, the energies that are life, have always existed, so I would suspect that a self knowledge would be somehow involved in this eternal system of evolving. If life, is energy/waves, and energy/waves are of a perpetual non-origin, then life is of a perpetual non-origin as energy/waves. For this speculation energy/matter or wave/space, must = life. That would be SwPaAvCeEs, as the living knowing god, that is responsible for the world we live in, as it is all things. This is what they want with an intelligent design theory. They want god as alive and aware. That's the heart of intellegent design. So I, as much as any truth seeker, want to know if it can be eliminated as a possibility? I just gave it my best optimistic approach. If not, if this is incorrect, then the SwPaAvCeEs that is the god of the wsm theory, is a "dead" god, but how is there energy, in that which is not alive? As there is energy in SwPaAvCeEs, perpetually, what is really "dead"? So it's down to alive SwPaAvCeEs, or unalive SwPaAvCeEs. From your post It seems that Space/waves are the catalyst for life, but not considered alive.

northjetty/the cosmos

[haselhurst]

What is SwPaAvCeEs?
Then I will try and answer.
And I think it would be good to read above posts several times over a week and think about it.
Our minds are better when they get time to ponder on things (from my experience!)
Cheers,
Geoff

[Steve Anthony]

Hello everyone,

Some thoughts...

We need repeated patterns to make something 'stick' in our minds, but the problem with this is that the action wears a 'groove', as it becomes memory, which is harder to escape from, the longer the pattern is worn; Another 'paradoxical duality' that is actually One Thing, memory management.

To understand our own (personal) memory management takes an objective view that humans are not used to accepting, or even observing, in themselves.

For me, Geoff's 'problem' of explaining the mind, is a psychological one, hence my interest in juxtaposing WSM with the science of the human consciousness (psychology).

If we look at WSM from a purely physical perspective, we also have to concede that we are opposing well worn patterns in the collective unconscious regarding all things 'non(or beyond = meta)physical'.

My current thoughts are that Jung's proposition of this 'collective unconscious' is what we have previously intuited as 'God(s)', with a little added support from 'things we cannot yet know'.

It is also, therefore, important to realise that the present form of WSM does not represent a 'TOE', 'GUT', or any other supposed explanation of 'everything', but certainly is a significant leap of our present understanding.

Greater study of psychology (collective and self) will help us know just how truthful our findings are. We deceive ourselves so easily. Much more easily than we can usually confess to ourselves, even. This is where the 'problem' lies. Not with Space, but within the interpretations of itself (as us).

People are afraid of responsibility. This is why we still need to be 'governed'. It would be so easy to return to a barbaric state. I say 'return', but we only have to read the papers or turn on the TV to realise just how barbaric we still truly are. We don't like to admit to that, so we prefer the connotations associated with words such as 'civilised' or 'intelligent', but these are only words, not often a true representation of humanities actions.

Places such as this web-site are truly 'civilised' and 'intelligent', but we already have to acknowledge that we are in a minority that opposes most of societies 'beliefs' about itself.

The best way to accept the 'religious' attitude in ourselves (as a species) is to see it all as metaphor, but also as something we need to re-evaluate, once reality does come into view.

The negation of our responsibility is what causes us the greatest of problems. It's ok to do just about anything, as long as there is some 'saviour' just waiting for the right time to come and do 'God's will'. This is all about pushing responsibility away from ourselves, making it somebody else's (thing's) fault. About as far from Truth we can get. So it is very important to realise that we can be our own 'saviours' once we recognise the fact (Truth = Reality).

Here's another truth. WE are responsible for the current levels of destruction happening all around us, right now. WE are the only 'ones' that can do anything about our actions. And WE have to become more responsible to do that.

Such are my thoughts on 'intelligent design'. If we want such a thing, we have to realise that we may well be IT. Evolving such a thing out of pure necessity, as a balance to our unconsciously destructive natures.

Also, 'religions' are what have transported our moral understandings through the generations, so in a time of increased 'barbarism' it seems prudent to re-introduce 'religion', as the traditional conveyor of 'morals', but when the 'religions' in question are questioned themselves, we need to adopt another perspective. We desperately need Truth, as 'belief' is no longer good enough, having 'shot itself in the foot' too many times.

So, ok, let's BE intelligent, and get designing a better future for ourselves, and the rest of 'creation' that we currently pretend to be 'masters' over...


regards,

~Steve~


P.S. Please recognise, that this is just MY perspective, not any 'agenda' proposed by WSM, or those associated with it, or any other 'body'. It in no way changes any physical findings.

Truth is like a tightrope through Space. One wrong step, and we are left floating aimlessly, with just metaphor to cling to...

[northjetty]

Ok, I was trying to symbolize alot of information into a one word symbol. Because space can't exist without waves, and waves can't exist without space, I have been loosely using one word or the other to convey the compound meaning. So space, the mostly rigid, slightly elastic primary substance, with the properties of a wave medium=SwPaAvCeEs, as there can be no seperation of the two. The substance, and the energy of the substance are non-dual. You had said that it's possible for waves, in space, to be alive, but life doesn't have to be aware of itself in order to be alive.


UNINTELLIGENT WAVES, IN A SUBSTANCE>UNINTELLIGENT WAVE CENTERS IN A SUBSTANCE>UNINTELLIGENT MATTER EVOLVING>MATTER EVOLVING TO INTELLIGENCE>EVOLVED INTELLIGENT MATTER


Now to put that into perpetual motion as a thought expeirment, I was looking at this as > meaning becoming, or moving into


UNINTELLIGENT WAVES OF A SUBSTANCE>INTELLIGENT SUBSTANCE, OF UNINTELLIGENT WAVES OF A SUBSTANCE>INTELLIGENT SUBSTANCE, OF UNINTELLIGENT WAVES OF A SUBSTANCE

So as if evolutionary processes are perpetual along with the finite universe in infinite space, it's like intelligence is causing waves that cause intelligence that cause waves that cause intelligence, in a perpetual system where we can deduce that those two are occuring now. This is really like the universe opens its eyes and then closes it eyes, opens its eyes and closes its eyes. This is all a speculation that I need deep intelligence to consider. I thank you Geoff, for helping me in this consideration because you are the authority here on what is a valid speculation and what is not. This is me trying see the significance of intelligence through evolution, pertaining to a perpetual system of non-origin.

northjetty/the cosmos

[haselhurst]

Hi NJ,
What is wrong with term 'waves in space'.

And if you are now talking about intelligence (rather than life) then you also need to define that word (related to WSM).

These are my thoughts on intelligence (some possible definitions);

1. Knowledge of other matter and its motions - then an electron is intelligent due to knowledge from in waves.

2. Intelligence as an ordering process - then interconnected repeating wave patters are intelligent (closer to truth I suspect).

3. Intelligence as ability to store knowledge and act upon this knowledge - well then you need a more complex system again, like life. (And I suspect this free will ultimately comes from infinite system which is not deterministic / there are many possible futures which we can select).

4. Intelligence as conscious awareness (plus above) - then you are talking advanced life forms / humans.

I don't know - other than to repeat; 'philosophical problems arise when language goes on holidays' (Wittgenstein).

And that the definitions should be based on waves in space and how they interact.

Hope this helps,
Geoff

"Some philosophers have fallen into this opinion in the same way that they have into other paradoxes. They are confronted by an esoteric argument, find it impossible to refute and end up by giving in to it and accepting its conclusion! This explains the confusion of some, ... the basis of the cure is definition. Now a definition arises from the necessity that words have some meaning; for the definition is the account of which the word is the sign." (Aristotle, Metaphysics)

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Aristotle-Philosopher.htm

[northjetty]

Geoff, I was considering that the electrons were acting aware, and that the reapeating wave patterns were somehow tied to life as well from what I've read about both. So it's like raw substances are alive in a way, space and it's wave motions are alive in way, but they may only 'see around' through us. So that when people want to know how god, or intelligence fits into all of this, there it is. In a perpetual system, evolutions would have always been taking place. There's no telling how many times life has evolved, or is evolving just in our own finite spherical universe. So I'm seeing life as potentially ever-present, somewhere or another all the time, in a perpetual system with no real "early universe" to speak of, and no real boundries.

Also, as intelligence goes, if it has always been around here, there, or somewhere else in infinite space, then intelligence would be tied right into the overall existence of an infinite space. So this does leave room for god concepts, that describe through metaphor, the reality of a perpetual system, which is what the god concept's are refering, the system of reality itself. So all of the intelligences, that my rise and fall, like wave peaks and throughs, would be experienced by space/waves all at once, because it's the very substance of every intelligent experience, as it rises and falls, in every finite spherical universe that intelligence inhabit's. We are the eyes of space, and it's wave motions here. also, any other life form, of any undetermined type that is 'out there'.

If intelligence is always rising and falling in a perpetual infinite space of wave motions, then it's function of self realization as the perpetual infinite space system is always being experienced somewhere, with no time when there was no intelligence anywhere in infinite space. From robs statement, " There is room in infinite space for intelligent design" this is what I envision as the reasoning to why such a statement would be made. If we are evolving in a perpetual system, I feel that this is not the only place, or time that intelligence exists. It's like we are looking at a potential "Drake Equation" for the infinite perpetual cosmos. Is this hogwash, or is this a sound inquiry that may have no good solid answer yet?

northjetty/the cosmos

[Aireal]

Every one

Geoff made an very important observation. The 4 points in is post relate to levels of awareness.

1. Knowledge of other matter and its motions- starts this process with the electron.

2. Intelligence as an ordering process- Moves up the scale to the atom in which interconnected repeating wave patterns are the norm.

3. Intelligence as the ability to store knowledge and act upon it- This most likely starts at the level of primitive life, but may start sooner. I knew a very lonely rock once upon a time, that made it clear he liked to be petted, more about that in a minute.

4. Intelligence as conscious awareness- which starts at higher life forms, like us if I may be so bold.

These different levels of awareness are very important, and their use will reduce confusion.

Number 3 is about the only sticky spot. Many native cultures and other belief systems hold that some inanimate objects are more "alive" than others. Among Indians they are called power objects and seers who can see the aura claim that they have a larger aura than other objects of their type. The lonely rock I mentioned is a good example of this. Remember that I think that the aura is just the waves from an object that some people can see at times.

I was teaching my wife how to find power objects. One day I took her to a large gravel deposit I had been to earlier, and had already located the most powerful stones there. Then I asked her to find them. With no prodding from me, she was able to locate the several stones I noticed among the thousands there. She brought them home. We placed them on a self by the bed over our nightstand and was talking about the trip. Then one of the rocks jumped 8 inches to clear the self and land on the nightstand between us, much to the surprise of my wife. I told her to pick it up. She noticed two things, that it was warm, like a living creature, and that it was lonely. She wondered how this could be. I told her that this rock was in fact a fossil that was at one time alive. The attention we gave it brought that memory back, and it craved the company of other living things. Just pet it from time to time, and it will soon remember that it is no longer alive and go back to being just a rock. For several days it was still warm to the touch and we petted it daily. Then one day it was cold and showed no more signs of life, it was again the rock we first found.

So how does this relate to W.S.M. When this creature was alive, it sent it's out waves into the universe millions of years ago. Some of those waves will return as its in waves in the present. Included in those in waves were waves from us as living beings. A resonance was established which was similar to the resonance it had when alive and surrounded by other life. A memory if you wish to call it that. These waves confused it into "thinking" it was alive again, and surrounded by life instead of cold rock. But its out waves were those of a rock, after a time of its "rock" out waves returning to it as in waves from us, it could tell the minor difference between these wave energies and "remembered" that it was just a rock and no longer alive.

This is one of the things that attracted me to W.S.M. It holds the hope of explaining this and many other paranormal effects in terms of waves, and is the only scientific theory that can hope to do so.

Ghosts beware, we are on to you and your tricks.

Little Feather

[haselhurst]

NJ,
I agree, in infinite space there are infinite life forms - but all similar to us in that they are made from repeating interconnected wave patterns that can form similar copies of themselves (life).
Darwinian evolution will apply to them as it does to us.
So somewhere in infinite space there has always been life that is aware that it is infinite space.

Interestingly, there must be an infinite number of times that individual life forms have discovered reality, and have had to fight their cultures which would have invariably evolved from ignorance and be founded on cultural myths.

However, some people tend to think that in infinite eternal space with infinite life forms that we must therefore have existed an infinite number of times, as have all life and possibilities.
I do not think this is true.
You can have an infinite system that has infinite possibilities and never repeats itself.

Infinity is a difficult concept for our feeble human minds.
But infinitely interesting too!

Aireal - the jumping rock is hard for me to accept. In the past I would have assumed that it was something the person had imagined - as it is very hard to separate imagination and reality at times (given that everything in our mind is imagination - albeit based on a physical reality around us).
I agree that matter tends to pick up subtle vibrations from other matter around it (and store this knowledge), so psychics may well be able to intuit knowledge of past lives from sensing this information stored in matter. e.g. certain buildings are known to cause some people to experience 'ghosts'.
But a rock that suddenly moves - that is really spooky. Your attempt to explain it with WSM is interesting - will have to think about it.

I think my 'subtle senses' are poor. I tend to be logical and spend most of my time thinking rather than experiencing (lost in thought). So in the past I have had negative opinions about these 'mystical' experiences. But I am learning to keep an open skeptical mind - clearly reality is quite amazing and powerful given that my tiny little body here on earth is actually a structure of the universe and its real size is many billions of light years.

I wish there was some definitive way of proving your experience (and similar accounts from many other people) using accepted rules of science.
Interesting though - thanks for relating it.

Geoff

[northjetty]

Geoff, I had been considering that in infinite space, there must be an infinite amount of variations that can occur in the re-occuring evolutions. So nothing really stays the same every time the evolutions occur. But as for the life, I agree, darwinian evolution would apply even to the undetermined life. This inquiry was aimed at trying to reconcile how alot of our mythic images are of the whole world as a living thing. As little feather just described, there is a native understanding of the inanimate as carrying life deep within. I've always thought that that was sound because the atoms are of movement, and now the waves, in the atoms, are moving and repeating and carrying on. We are alive because we are animate with movement. So raw movement, in and of itself, seems to be the base of life to me. And it's found all the way down to the microcosm. So I've always held the understanding since that realization that the whole thing is living, the whole universe. Now, especially from what has been deduced here, that alive image applies to the whole of eternity beyond our universe.

The world is designed by space wave motion, that is by all means alive in the real sense of movement and motion and repitivity. Space wave motions design everything that exist's out of it's own essence. Space wave motions are everything and everywhere all the time. This is no accident, for sure, because with a perpetual system, everything that happens has to have a purpose to perpetual motion. Everything is a function of perpetual motion, including the process of evolution.


What bothers me is that we live in a world, where I guy like me can be brought up through christian school systems and have been shielded from the theory of evolution almost completely. I had no real understanding of evolution until I was older. People want to argue that we weren't monkeys, and that we weren't cosmic ooze. I've heard these sermons. This is outrageous, that in this day in age children can be subject willy nilly to such evident nonsense. We are the god dammed cosmic ooz right now, trying convince ourselves that we aren't! It's like go cut your arm open and watch what comes out? Cosmic ooze? And what about the detailed row of skulls that we can stroll down and watch go from us, to a primate. So in fundamental christianity, there are still those out there how don't have any formal understanding of the theory of evolution whatsoever. And they are so afriad of it, that they won't accept it at all.

Then we have the intelligent design crowd, who are somewhat privy to evolution but want a god that is outside of space and time, and personally designed space and time. Through this post modern world view that has been very acceptable for a lot of people as nothing can be proven and everthing is subjective, even truth. I always could see that for this arguement to have any merit, the god must be the creation itself. So for the christian groups, this is quite stale, and venturing into pantheism. Oh that scary pantheism that our christianity is entirely based on in the first place! You want to talk about the blind leading the blind!

So this word "intelligent design" is so tainted with evident nonsense. But here, understanding the wsm, god = space and time, it holds more merrit because things can be logically deduced. I think that it is logical that we have come to realize that intelligence must flourish in an infinite space. I wondered how logical that was to you Geoff, because you are a skeptical scientist, and it still seems logical to you. This isn't some fairy tale image, this is logically considering intelligence and just how far reaching it actually is. I feel that of all the intelligent design concepts that are out there, the wsm recognizing intelligence as part of infinity, tops them all. This is one of logic, simple logic. So the matter over mind, mind over matter issue of post modernism, is simply that mind and matter are ever-present in an infinite realm of space wave motion. Not the chicken, not the egg, both. This is going from duality, to the non-dual transcendent. The pair of opposites are actually ONE thing existing. Is this going too far? Or is this the wsm conclusion of mind/matter.

northjetty/the cosmos