I think you missed one... On Meaning of 'God'

[J D U III]

While reviewing your theology summarizations,
I believe you forgot to include the collectively
summarized view of God, as many of us tend to
view such as a symbol of the following:
1.) the creator of that which we experience,
2.) infinitely omniscient,
3.) infinitely omnipotent,
4.) an infinitely dimensional,
5.) (view specific)
infinitely exponentially growing,
(viewed as stable from our position)
6.) (secularly specific)
infinitely compassionate / loving,
7.) (secularly specific)
embodiment of the whole of life, and
8.) (secularly specific)
the stem from which all things grow.

Just thought I'd post and see what comes of it? I am an anal theologian who has little grip on reality. I think that I know everything, but I'm actually quite ignorant. Can someone please correct me?

[haselhurst]

Hi JDUIII,
Thanks for your comments. From a philosophy / metaphysics point of view, God is a word that humans invented (like all other words) to give a name to the One Infinite Eternal thing that causes and connects the many finite temporal things that we experience.
Thus the Metaphysics of Space / Wave Structure of Matter must conclude that God is Space (and its wave motions).

From this foundation, we would agree with the following from your list.

1.) the creator of that which we experience, YES
2.) infinitely omniscient, TO BE DETERMINED
3.) infinitely omnipotent, YES
4.) an infinitely dimensional, NO - SPACE IS THREE DIMENSIONAL
5.) (view specific)
infinitely exponentially growing, NO - SPACE IS INFINITE, IT CANNOT GROW
(viewed as stable from our position)
6.) (secularly specific)
infinitely compassionate / loving, NO (THUS WHY GOOD AND EVIL EXIST)
7.) (secularly specific)
embodiment of the whole of life, YES
8.) (secularly specific)
the stem from which all things grow. YES

Any thoughts?
Geoff

[Guest]

Yes, I do have a thought.
By your logic, if I create a visual illustration,
I am a visual illustration. This obviously seems
to have some sort of gap in logic. Just because
an artist limits himself, does not mean that the artist is
supremely limited to creating only again in the same way
on the same planes, and is in essence space because that is
what he has in this instance created.
If you are going to correct someone, you really should
have an adequate understanding and background on that
specific subject.
Conversely, if we are creatures of growth,
as evolution, experience, and education would seem to be
ready indications of our natural evolution toward communicative
growth, at the least, and we seem to be envisioning new dimensions
to control (probable future realities by observation of cause and
effect, etc.), then we would inevitably as a species grow past the
point of God's own ability if he didn't also grow, so from this we
learn:
1.) God grows, and
2.) God grows faster than we, or any other of his creations.
Sure this may be only on a dimensional level,
but existence on a higher dimensional plane would dictate an
ability to control your image on lower planes to a degree,
and this is God we're talking about, really, man...
If I'm in 4 dimensions (LxWxHxTime), really 5 or 6 depending
upon your view of specific degrees of control over our own
probable and possible future realities, 7 if you include your
ability to influence your past through belief structures involving
an eternal soul in relation to your current state, anyway...
if I'm creating an image on a canvas with paint, which appears two
dimensional, but is really three if we count the piece itself as art,
and not just the image, am I thereby limited as finite in one, two,
three dimensions, etc., because this is where I have created, or
can I also paint a second painting on a (gasp!) new piece of canvas,
which would appear as a seperate alternate dimension to a painted
figure?! I think I'm going to cry at the implications of your words,
both in the directions of your limited view, and your will toward
limiting the points of views of others, not to mention the fact that
you attempted to critique an abstract point of view, which can not
be correct or incorrect, only added to. That's all. I'm done ranting
for right now.

REVEREND J D U III

[haselhurst]

Hello,
While i did not really understand your reply, I realise that you are not very happy with my comments about 'God'.
However, at this forum our imagination is limited by the metaphysics of Space and the Wave Structure of Matter (WSM).
I think my answer is correct from this foundation.
And i do not think you are really interested in discussing the WSM and its consequences for humanity / religion, so I think your comments do not belong in this forum.
Sorry to be abrupt, I am not trying to be rude, just busy and want to keep this forum focused on WSM.
Geoff

[Guest]

One can not understand the whole without understanding all
parts, including our imaginations and beliefs. I am only
unhappy with your critique of generalized statements, as
you placed limits on an abstract. If you were truly interested
in the final outcome of your views of the ways things work,
you would disregard no one's statements, dismiss no one,
critique no one. You would only add to their point of view
and / or state your own as simply opinion, because theory
is just that, and all abstractions are indeed theory, as they
are all interpreted differently by different minds. Beside the
write off, you completely ignored the points I was making
in regards to a creator being limited by his creations. If you
are unable to interact respectfully and inquisitively of people's
own views, you will find that those who come will leave, and
yours will become a forum for facists and not free thinkers.
Your choice, but just take a look at what I wrote, it's not hard
to figure out the main points when you're not blinding yourself
to your own inadequacies. Thanks for the timely reply, though.

[Denys DuPont]

There are opinions, and then there are INFORMED opinions. It is to be regretted that you posted yout thoughts, apparently without having perused the available sites adequately to form your opinions in respect to the WSM, and to tie these opinions in with your remarks.

True, the site managers welcome postings that may contradict the foundational premises that are enunciated, but you threw out your thoughts to reinforce your own biases without considering how they might contribute to this site. Your insistence that ALL comments should be entertained, in disregard to the purposes of the sites, and are not germane to them, nor to the issues that pertain to the core of the expositions on them, is hubristic on your part. Moreover, the implication that it is "fascistic" to deprive one of the opportunity to state whatever messages, which are not qualitatively pertinent to the forums, show that your stated beliefs are constructs that have no basis whatsoever to do (excepting some that are logically and empirically supportable) with an a priori examination of the literature in theology or philosophy. It is not "fascistic" to deny anyone, who express their opinions on these forums. if such commentaries lack substance. Is it "fascistic" if others do not agree with you, and have their own views on a matter? There are other Internet sites that might welcome your views, I'm sure, so don't be discouraged. Keep trying! But, you have not been denied the privilege of submitting further themes to the forums.

It would be helpful, however, for you to more clearly express yourself and to confine yourself to what valuable contributions you can make to the body of knowledge. Godspeed!

[Guest]

Facism is only going along with whatever people say and or do with little or no consideration in regards to thinking for yourself. I agree with the principle logic, but not the theory of WSM absolutely. To accept without question is indeed facist, and encouraging only those with similar views only promotes such ways. If you truly listen and take to heart, and attempt to understand the posts of others, you will refine your views by finding the cracks within. I was not posting a critique on your views of WSM, though. I was just amending to that small portion of the site that describes the generalized view of God. I do not hold people in contempt for their views, or for speaking or acting before thinking, but in this situation I am highly tempted to. Please refer to the original post before belittling anyone without knowledge of context.

[haselhurst]

Hello,
Thanks Denys for your comments. They reflect my own views as well. The purpose of this forum, and its foundations from Space (as the only thing / substance that exists) are clearly stated. If people don't agree then they can post and give reasons (using methods of Science).
However, most people do not argue by reason, but rather by emotion, then try to find 'reason' to support their views. That is why it is necessary to limit this forum to those who are genuine.

I think the tossing about of names like fascist is a common strategy in emotional arguing, but really it is silly. What is at issue is the truth, and in particular the truth about physical reality. And it is now clear that the Wave Structure of Matter explains this very well.
Obvioulsy anyone who believes in 'God' is not going to be happy with such a conclusion, I guess it is up to them to show that it is wrong, (that they do not exist in Space). However, it is also obvious that if you know reality, then it must be impossible for others to show that your ideas are untrue.
So rather than calling me a fascist, perhaps JUDIII can show, using methods of science (philosophy physics metaphysics) that the WSM is not true.
That will be interesting!
Cheers,
Geoff

[Guest]

Oh, OK, I thought I was just amending the summarization of the current views of God. I didn't know that you were actually asking me to state why I believe that space exists beyond three dimensions. allow me to elaborate. Heat is the final form of all energy. Unless time were not infinite (note: Einstein refered to space/time, and you have made clear that you agree with Einstein's theories), then all matter should be heat by now, and so there is a creator of substance (energy), or there are infinite stacked dimensions allowing energy flow from higher to lower vibrations of dimensions. What created these dimensions, and their specific order that allows our current 4th dimensional time/space to exist? WSM? Is the theory that finite matter is in actuality the constant gravitational pull of waves of an as of yet undisclosed form of energy concurrently replusing the same waves of energy in contradiction to the above? Absolutely not. Am I skeptical as to how you 'intuited' such knowledge with so many holes in regards to variable assignment, especially without the use of a highly-powered microscope capable of viewing units of plancks or strings? Absolutely. I use logic to come to my conclusions, and though I believe that your theory is possible, it is just theory. And throughout history, as many researchers have found, those looking to find an ultimate truth are usually too determined to make a discovery to realize that they may be wrong. Those are the ones who allow emotion to govern their views... And you still say that WSM is true, while many researchers with profound and famous theories admit that they may be wrong, because they are just theory. Those with unprovable theories have only unprovable theories. You have disregarded the valid points I have previously made for sake of arguement and belittlement to feed your own intellectual ego. Please take the time to respond and prove me wrong about your willing shortsightedness and promotion of facism to prove your own abilities. Just prove your abilities with your logic, and explanations of the unsolved variables in your theory. Those on a brittle throne of exaltation have throughout history promoted facist nationalism, secularism, and political views to stay seated. I am sure you do not mean to seem this way, but it is all I've seen of you thus far. Just rise to the challenge and prove me wrong, that's all I ask. You seem like a bright kid. Just open your eyes to the fact that I'm not trying to be arguementative, but am indeed defensive when it comes to unbacked violations of the beliefs of others.

[haselhurst]

Hello again!
In an Infinite Eternal (Perpetual) Space as described by the Wave Structure of Matter, then waves are endlessly flowing in from infinity. It is this flow of energy that keeps our finite spherical universe recycling itself.
And matter cannot become heat, heat is the motion energy of matter, which is really the wave motion of space.
And when you assume that matter is a wave structure then you deduce fundamentals of Relativity, QT and Cosmology.
So where is your empirical evidence for all these higher dimensions? What do you deduce that explains and unites current foundations of physics? And is it more simple than WSM (obviously not, since WSM is founded on One thing existing, infinite eternal space).

My experience is that people postulate 'higher dimensions' as then they can assume anything exists (beyond our senses) which satisfies human imagination.
Anyway, you are not serious about either science (physics philosophy metaphysics) or about truth of WSM (you seem to enjoy insulting me instead, but I get used to that!). So there is not much point continuing (people can argue till the cows come home when it comes to their pet religious beliefs, it doesn't achieve anything as it is in the realm of imagination rather than physical reality).
Cheers,
Geoff

[Guest]

Infinity is a length of time, not a source. Where does the energy come from. I don't mean to insult, but these are valid questions. You insult me by making me beat and probe answers out of you that you obviously must take time thinking about. Infinity does not flow in circles, or it would be a closed circle time loop, a finite period of time that repeats, and without an outside source would slow to a stop. Heat does indeed occur as the friction of matter, but when this happens the particles break down into smaller and smaller particles which is what we notice as heat. So why isn't everything that small (already broken down by the process we see and converted to raw energy flowing from hotter places to cooler places through transference--heat--)? Assumptions are great for expanding your imagination and ability to understand, but can not be relied upon. Moving on, dimensions are a term used to describe functions out of our area of observation. A good way of viewing the answer to my question above would be to say that every particle is always getting smaller through friction, but that so are the environment's inhabitants. This would constitute a different dimension of observations, because we can not see that small, or looking back in time, that big. So if you are demanding evidence of realms we can not see, but with effects we can see, how about dark matter? How about alternate possible futures we move in to by controlling our actions today? How about harnessing the gravitative effects of 20,000 black holes to create a time warp as Hawking suggests? How about even third-dimensional space / time wrapped as a whole in to what would appear as a giant ribbon of condensed and contorted time / space? would those not appear as outside of our viewing abilities, and as another dimension of exploration? I do not have to prove a thing, so long as it is possible, as with any theory, but if you are going to bring the validity of it to question, you will have to disprove it. science isn't born by proving theories, but by disproving alternative theories. I am serious about science, and thus the truth of WSM, as the whole of science, and the elusive M theory must incorporate all articles in order to be valid. You aren't me, and so can't know these things, and have proven your tendency toward jumping to conclusions without acknowledging every possibility, as well as your maturity. And as far as the imagination being unrelated to physical reality, what do you think your ability to create a new thought, theory, or direction of probability is? It is your imagination used in conjunction with your rational mind. I would like to interact with you rationally, but I can see that anyone who has been harrassed and belittled as much as you have been must feel a little insecure and selfrighteous in their own martyrdom by now, so I guess if you aren't willing and able to interact on a solely intellectual plane, then you have no place in the world of science, because you are picking and choosing who you are going to revere, acknowledge, and reject, on ignorant emotional bias alone. Play nice or play with yourself.

[haselhurst]

As the introduction to this forum states, if you want to discuss WSM then you need to read articles first.
If you had you would not write things you do. i.e.
"Infinity is a length of time". It is also an extension of Space.
Your arguments of heat are not valid as they are founded on 'particle' concepts, which the WSM explains.
And yes, ultimately we use imagination to work out reality. To constrain our limitless imagination we use methods of Science. i.e. We state our Principles and deduce from them to see if they work (correspond to what we experience).
When you do this you find that WSM does work.
In time this will become accepted, simply because it is true, and others will be able to confirm that for themselves, using accepted methods of Science.
Geoff

PS - I think I have been accommodating in answering you. If you read on the WSM and have specific questions / problems then i will try to answer them. But I am busy and have to limit these little chats that lead nowhere.

[Guest]

Regardless of how you choose to label or define a particle or it's components, it's effects remain essentially the same, including heat. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, and that if I just read what you above mentioned over and over again I'll realize that I'm not cold. Just because the car is painted a different color doesn't mean that it isn't a car.
Also, you are correct on infinity, it is just a way of labeling the neverending.
Also, realizing that something does not NOT work, does not necessarily mean that that's the way it is. For example, I can fly by using a helicopter or an airplane, but just because it flies, doesn't mean my speculation is fact. The universe may work by your means, but it is in no way a definite. In time, nothing. Your theory is already accepted as such as soon as the words come out of your mouth, but accepted as true is relative to whether any other possible explanation but yours has been disproved. I do appreciate the rapport, but constantly saying 'reread what you've read' get's us nowhere. I have read what you have refered me to, including the rest of the pages on this site, before I ever even posted. My other post you answered had not been answered last I'd checked, but I'll keep checking, because I would like to see the answers you can come up with. Cheers!

[Gil]

Hi JDUIII,

I'd be glad to take on your position, if you're still lurking around. I think I see the problem with both your arguments. I think a fuller exploration and explanation can help both you and wsm/geoff, and others. Please respond.

5.) (view specific)
infinitely exponentially growing, NO - SPACE IS INFINITE, IT CANNOT GROW
(viewed as stable from our position)

As I've written elsewhere;

May I point out that faith is the certain mathematics of one - the eternal infinity; and science, reason and logic are the certain mathematics of one, and the many. The many branches of mathematics[math is not ideology {or theology}], and true answers, are not faith based, they are certain {mathematical} truths, if you accept any solid reality, at all. To not accept any solid reality is to be without any {mathematical} logic or foundational reasons. Accepting any sort of wave matter structure, of any kind, is logical certainty, and not, is solipsistic. "I" exist, therefore I am. That's not faith, that's certainty, to me. My wave structured matter "self" and body is absolutely real to me, no matter what anyone else solipsistically thinks.

Hope I haven't been too forceful,
Gil

[galaxy*19]

I would first like to state that I think anyone in search of truth or who hopes to come up with a new paradigm for science (or any area of intellectual interest) is bound to be met with opposition at times. This is the fundamental nature of advancing knowledge.

Geoff - Yes. Important to realise this. Sad but true, as most criticisms are emotional rather than logical empirical (science based).

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
(Max Planck, surveying his own career in his Scientific Autobiography)

If humans never got cold in the first place, they would not have been motivated to look for a way to warm themselves, and thus would never have discovered fire.
Therefore, I agree with the previous poster that other ideas and opinions should not be shoo-ed so much as properly defended, or merely discounted as irrelevant. The choice is yours. If you think it is irrelevant, than by all means, discount it. However, if it is relevant, and your goal is truly to expand knowledge across the board, then perhaps a sufficient response would be appropriate. Just my opinion.

Geoff - If you check out most discussions (other forums) they are a waste of time as you just get endless opinions / arguments that lead nowhere. In this forum we have clearly stated our principles / what exists, and have shown that it deduces fundamentals of QT, relativity and cosmology. It is the most simple foundation for science, it is founded on something we all commonly experience. So if people want to criticise it they have to use accepted rules of science (physics philosophy metaphysics). Most people have not studied these subjects, thus their criticisms are not valid. If they are not open to learning then i have to remove them from forum. This is a place for people to intelligently and politely discuss knowledge based on rules / reason / empirical knowledge. I do not like removing people - I just know that it is necessary at times (but I will be criticised for being dictatorial no doubt!)


There is a lot to respond to here, so I'll try and be brief.
1. Infinity. Is infinite. Includes everything. Are we trying to define infinity here? Or have we already agreed that it goes beyond our own Finite realm of spherical interaction with matter (i.e. our Universe)? Is infinity bigger than the universe? I guess we are agreeing that infinity includes all universes, from every observers perspective. In fact, no matter what that person perceives from his/her perspective, somehow this has to be included in infinity, since it exists, or is real to that person and their universe. Surely, what someone imagines as being 'truth' may not be ultimate truth. Epistemology leaves our perceptions as fallible. SO it is possible for us all to be incorrect.

Geoff - This is the challenge, to seek certainty of knowledge (truth) which requires knowing what exists and how it is necessarily interconnected. If we assume that this space we experience is what actually exists (most simple foundation) then the WSM in space explains how material things are logically / necessarily interconnected (does not explain mind though).
Once we have our principles (existential statements) we can then deduce things beyond what we experience. This relates to infinity. According to WSM we only interact with a finite sphere of matter in space (our universe). But as our principle states only one thing exists (space) thus it must be infinite and eternal. And for our waves to keep flowing in from matter around us, well this means that that must also be true for their matter, and this logic extends to infinity. So space extends to infinity and has waves in it - our finite spherical universe is part of that - thus there are an infinite number of finite spherical universes in infinite space.

And to deny reality seems valid as well. It just may not be the direction you are trying to focus on, which is in a sense, proving reality. WSM is a way to prove, hey, this is how this thing we call 'reality' works. And it's real. If you step into that context, then i can see how arguments for what lies outside of this reality we are describing can appear irrelevant. Therefore, I believe WSM is not trying to describe Infinity. It is more focused on a part of that infinity, which happens to be a Finite Sphere of space, a universe, namely the physical universe from Earth.

Geoff - If reality is defined as 'what exists' (and causes all things) then it is illogical to say that reality does not exist. Do you have a different definition of reality? re. Infinity see my comments above.

There is a lot of conjecture (it seems to me) and things taken for granted in all areas of intellectual interest. In order to learn and discover more, however, we have to, sometimes, either adopt certain theories (and i could argue that everything presented as 'truth' is a 'theory', based on epistemology) or try and disprove theories. Even if we develop a new theory that really does a great job of explaining how our finite sphere of space (and perception, that we call reality) works, it is still limited to that. We perhaps can never scientifically prove what all is contained in infinity, that it exists at all, or or even that anything in it has any relevance.

Geoff - I understand your point of view, it is very sensible, but I think we can do better. We can show that the most simple science theory of reality is also the one that abides by rules of metaphysics (study of one substance that exists and causes / connects the many things we experience). To say it is not true - well you have three options if you abide by rules of science;
1. Reason from more simple principles - as there are no more simple principles than founding all things on one thing existing space, thus this is not possible.
2. Evidence from senses - as we all commonly experience space, and idea of space is necessary (a priori) for Science then this is also not possible.
3. Show deductions from WSM in Space contradict our senses. The opposite is true, they deduce things perfectly with mathematical precision of logic.
But we still have a gap in our knowledge because we do not understand how our minds exist / function to feel things like emotions, experience wavelengths as colors etc.
So a lot more has to be done - thus you are correct, we must always be ready to reject a theory if it is shown to not work.

But i also wanted to say that, from my experience, matter can become heat. When i burn wood (matter), with fire, i feel heat. And that is basic experience. Perhaps you were arguing about a different kind of heat.

Geoff - Well it is all energy, which is the energy of wave motions.

Finally, I want to say that, if it is in fact the whole of reality we are trying to describe here, than we would have to further examine and take into account some views of things that are not allowed to be discussed within the scope of this forum. I would have to say that WSM does not include the everything of infinity, and it has been made clear by Geoff's posts that he is only interested in focusing on those topics.
At first glance, because WSM does appear to cover SO MUCH of that Infinity, i can see why others (and even myself) see things missing. There are in fact things missing. WSM is NOT all encompassing. Like I hope I have (nicely and politely) expressed above, it is focused on a limited, scientific (and philosophic, etc) scope.

Geoff - I agree in one sense as explained above - we do not sense things to infinity. But reason from our principles does deduce things about infinity, and I do think the WSM is complete in that sense, that infinite space exists. e.g. We will never know what other life forms exist out there in infinity, and I don't like speculation that much (ask my partner Karene!). But we can probably deduce some common principles that apply to all life. It gets complicated!

I must only assume that the topic areas listed, while they include subjects that reach out beyond WSM, also include many things related to WSM, and thus are included on this site. It is tempting, however, to want to delve into those areas while in the realm of WSM, since it so clearly is so intimately tied to those things.
I do not, however, believe it is Geoff's goal to discuss those things.
I'm now going to post another topic because I felt I have responded fully and would like to get on another track here.
Peace,
galaxy*19

Geoff - Idle speculation without foundations that can never be shown to be true or false is generally not encouraged here. But any discussion that is in harmony with WSM, is logical and sensible (science) is greatly encouraged and covers most things. Criticisms are also accepted based on rules of science (physics philosophy metaphysics). People's opinions are generally just that, and tend to confuse issues and are not welcome. We are trying to discuss truth and reality. Wonderful subjects that apply to everything we think and do - surely that is enough to discuss!!

Sorry to be abrupt - just busy - greatly appreciate your time and thoughtful post.
Cheers,
Geoff

PS - I (Google) corrected spelling mistakes - Google toolbar is recommended (my spelling / typing is crap so i depend on it)!

[haselhurst]

Hi G,
Have added in some comments above.
Thanks for a thoughtful post.
Cosmos,
Geoff

[galaxy*19]

Thanks for the reply and spelling corrections. My mother and editor would not be pleased if they knew I was making them.

[biblenut]

[galaxy*19]

Quotes from the bible are frightening to me. They portray scary images such as the one i got reading that:
a time, in the future, when the world's empty fields are filled with graveyards, and suddenly ghosts appear over all of them, and then are either judged and rise to heaven (ascend) or judged and damned to hell, and don't rise.
Seems like some would remain on Earth? THe living? a new race? The human race evolved?
Evolution and its inevitible direction is of concern to the Here and the Now. But I see a lot of lingering in the Past, and manipulating of the Past.
Just look at the turmoil that has continued for a lifetime (lifetimes, really) in the Middle East. What are they waging war over?
Who do people suffer for there? Are they arguing over the image of God, who God and what God represents?

--
There will always be conflict in the Universe, because it is One sprung into multiple Dualities. However, surely we can all rejoice in our beautiful diversity and our own ability to live freely and happily in peace. There's enough people in the world to keep space between these and those that you just don't get along with.
But we all have to make compromises.

So maybe it really is about the land. That particular portion of Earth perhaps is of special and great importance and these people cannot be determined to live anywhere else. But will any of them find the God and God's love descend on them or even bring any of God's dreams to life without the existence of their enemy? The complete opposite of them, living in balance and harmony together? Wouldn't that be the garden again?

Everyone else, is just Pagan.

[Aireal]

J D U III

I would like to make a few comments on the 8 points listed in your post. First let me say that I must agree with Geoff, than explain why.

1. The creator of that which we experience, Yes we all agree here.

2. Infinitly omniscient, To be determined, because from a scientific viewpoint, this is not proven yet. We can speculate that because out waves travel infinitly through space, they may carry information that could be considered awareness of distant events, but we have no proof that the One can extract that information, or understand it. Now I personally believe that the One is omniscient, but I can not prove it.

3. Infinitly omnipotent, Yes we all agree here too.

4. Infinitly dimensional, No, Space is 3 dimensional, as Geoff stated, and our science functions within those 3 dimensions, excluding mathamatical constructs like string theory and N-dimensional mathamatics. Thus these other dimemsions, if they exist, are currently outside our realm of testing, at least for the time being. Also in your reply on this matter you mentioned that multi-diminsions relate to probable and possible realities, as well as the past. Now I will not go into great detail as to my past experiences in this realm, but multiple dimensions are not needed for this to occur. I believe that the termology you used lead to this misunderstanding. Many belief systems use the termology of other dimensions in their discussions, but they do not mean the same thing that a scientist means when he speaks of other dimensions. As a writer, one of the first rules is to know your audience, one must pick the words one uses in the context of who will be reading it.

5. Infinitly exponentially growing, No - Space is infinite, it can not grow. From your reply to Geoff, I think that the wrong termology lead to misunderstanding. Perhaps Infinitly Evolving would better fit what you were trying to say.

6. Infinitly compassionate / loving, No, In fact I do not know of any mainstream religious writtings that expose this belief, however I do know of a vast number of preachers who expose this belief to draw in followers by qouting things out of context. So while many people may belive this, I can find no vaild support for an Infinitly compassionate / loving God in any of the worlds main religions.

7& 8. We all agree on these points.

So please do not be upset at the responce to your post, for although we may all be using English in our posts, it does not mean we all share the same meanings of the words we use. I knew an intelligent man once, who I would spend an entire evening argueing with, only to discover that we both held the same views, only we expressed them differently. Our words got in the way of what we meant. I hope this helps.

[galaxy*19]

Hi, and thanks for mentioning that English, such a rich language, like any language, still has it's limits. :)

I wanted to expand on point 2, Infinitely omniscient. Your intuitions tell you that we might be able to assume this. I think there is supporting evidence in the Zero Point Field. I believe that modern particle physics is approaching a true discovery of the Zero Point Field with the HIggs Ocean, and realizing that everything is somehow interconnected. The Field, is a great book if you've never read it, but discusses the Zero Point Field, which is something that spans all of the Inifinity. Perhaps you could think of this field as where the waves, wave, and the medium that the waves are made out of that travel through space. But the field could also be the undetectable, underlying energy field of the universe that allows our waves of matter to exist and be connected at all.
I believe that this field spans into a metaphysical realm as well, connecting people's thoughts, beliefs, histories. It is the place where all the motions and information in the waves is stored, basically.
So, this field, having all the information at all times in the universe, must then be all-knowing, complete. The One is made up of this field as well, if it is not the field itself.

I'm going to have to re-read this book and remember more of the subtle details about the Field, but then I will come back and post some more, but I think this is the direction to go in proving that the One, the Infinite, is all-knowing. (One last note here, about the personification of God. God is often personified as a 'being' that 'knows all, sees all, etc'. However I do not prefer to think of God or the One in that sense, because Infinity is a large order to place on just One being Unless you find it more comforting in your mind to personify this Infinite as an Infinite Being. But that can be misleading as well, because then we lose ourselves as 'infinite beings' as well, and it also somehow differentiates us from the One, where we are all really the same. We just use different languages. )

[northjetty]

GOD, means infinity, actually, and it is a symbol, and it does include us. We are the god, everything in infinity is the god, that's pantheism for you. But that pantheist belief, lies at the heart of reality, as we are all infinity, and the god concept is to be seen as within you.

Here is an example of the concept," Myths of Light: metaphors of the eternal"

" So indra was saved from the trouble, you might say, of going out and becoming a yogi. He had it all within him self now, as we all do. All you have to do is wake up to the fact that you are a manifestion(wave/medium) of the ETERNAL. .. all of our problems about atom bombs blowing up the universe, So what? There have been universes and universes before, every one of them blown up by an atom bomb perhaps. So now you identify yourself with the eternal that is within you and within all things. It doesn't mean that you want to see an atom bomb come, it just means that you won't spend all of your time worrying about it. "

That was from the late mythology expert Joseph Campbell on one of his deep reaching insights. The idea is that we are eternity, and it even traces it's way into judeo/christianity as they were founded on these earlier pantheistic concepts. The personifacation of god, is to be viewed as a symbol that points to eternity and transendence. This all sits well with these physical concepts of infinite space, and our self identifacation with it.

Sincerely,
northjetty/cosmos

[haselhurst]

Thanks again for such interesting posts.
Nice to see others argue so sensibly about such an emotional topic.
I completely agree with Aireal - language often gets in the way of understanding - and according to WSM God = Infinite Space and its wave motions (which cause and connect the many things we experience).

But while I agree that we are all really infinite beings I do find it hard to experience this, I am daily trapped in the naive real world of our senses of many finite separate / discrete things that we have evolved to sense. But I like that reason helps liberate me from this illusion, rather than just 'faith / religious dogma / belief'!
Great Cosmic thoughts to you all!
Geoff

[galaxy*19]

Hi Geoff!
Glad that you mentioned that, being trapped in the naive real world's sense of finite space. Because I was thinking about that while I was posting earlier, but didn't know how to best put it exactly.

Indeed, we are in our essence, truly infinite, so why this fascade of finite, discrete, particle based reality?

Not only is it hard to ignore/live around, but humans have evolved to the point of using this notion to control/influence/attempt to direct the actions and directions of other human beings. This is a scary proposition, and something that I think everyone involved with WSM would hope to abolish. Basically, we are all intelligent, well-informed, well-cultured (hopefully I'm not being too nice here) individuals, experiencing life like 'normal', conditioned people. Or wait, maybe we are seeing through the conditioning, and beginning to unveil True Human Nature, how nature intended.
Without all the extra spam clogging our thoughts, humans can actually begin to become co-creators in their realities (rather than just watchers, followers, sheep). By creators I mean we can create a more vivid sense of the Infinite, in our currently Finite view of the world, and thus affect it positively, which is probably my ultimate goal while living in this seemingly finitie reality. Even though it may seem finite, it is truly infinite, and the best we can hope to do is improve our experiences to reflect this.

In other words, in the search to reunite as One, we are in effect trying to Experience the One. And to do this, we must shift our perspective, and affect ourselves and our surrounding and the people in our lives -- we have to change our own experiences, so we can experience the Infinite! That is what I mean by becoming a creator.

And what better reason to become that creator than knowing YOU have the Power to do so!

So guess I"m making a couple points here.
0. We create our own reality - WSM, producing the waves that spread into Infinity.
1. Many people are conditioned in how they live their lives and aren't living up to their full potential or are ignorant of their full potential or true human nature. We are not involved in our own creation.

2. It is a good thing to be AWARE of how YOU are creating your world, essentially, because then you will think about the decisions you make. (and hopefully affect it in a Postive way, and Intelligent way, etc.)

3. Since we know and can possibly Prove that we ARE ALL ONE with WSM,
we know that our actions affect those of others, and then it all comes back to us, so we should try and affect it in a Positive way.

I guess more generally, knowing that everything we are and do affects our experiences, and knowing that our experiences affect us, we are aware of the circularity of the Infinite Universe, and we are encouraged to work positively towards reuniting with the Infinite.

Ok, or we could just be negative and stay stuck in thinking that everything is Finite. But that would be False thinking, rather than True thinking, and I believe humans are evolving beyond that. Just my opinoin... and perhaps Hope as well ;)

Finally, I guess what I am saying, is that I agree, it is an Illusion, the conditioned False Finite reality. And that is no way to Live! Which is what experiencing life is all about. And the reason why we are here ;)

Thanks,
Galaxy*19

[Aireal]

Genevieve

Do not let qoutes from the bible frighten you. I often use the bible as a sourse in my posts, on forums where I feel they are approprite. The problem lies in the fact that the bible is one of the least understood and misquoted books in history. Most people do not take the time to study it themselves, and depend upon others who claim to have studied it, yet preach their distorted views as the truth.

You said in your post that it would seem that some people would remain on the earth, perhaps a more evolved human race. This is exactly what the Bible does say will happen. That heaven will come down to earth, and God will once again walk side by side with mankind. You also mentioned all of the turmoil in the Middle East and wondered as to why they are always fighting. The Bible tells us that this would be the case, and even relates the story of how this all started. The Hebrews and the Arabs are related, they worship the same God, and hold many of them same locations holy. All this hate goes back to a family squabble between brothers that happened in ancient times, and continues to this day, so sad. Many have tried to bring peace to the Middle East, but until these people learn to forgive and forget, it will never happen. Hate does not leave room for love, compassion or forgivness, it consumes the soul like a disease or cancer consumes the body. But enough of such depressing subjects.

In another post on this thread you mentioned the Zero Point Field, and your belief that it extends into the metaphysical realm as well and relates to the one, if not the one itself. I have done research into the concept of zero piont energy, from the approach of science, as well as other approaches. Again you amaze and delight me, also your intuition searves you well. For I too hold the same belief due to my experiments and research. How I wish I could have meet people like Geoff, yourself, and others I have meet here, years ago, but then I would not have the experiences I have from trying to learn these things myself, so I guess it all worked out for the best in the end.

In your last post on this thread you made some points I enjoyed. Yes we do create our own reality, more so than many are aware of. Sadly, as you correcty stated, most people are conditioned in how to live their life, what to belive, ect., and thus do not live up to their potential. We need to be aware of how we create own reality, and take responsiblity for the decisions we make. Last but not least you state that we are all one with WSM, and what we do will affect others and come back to us with time. Thus we should try too be postive. How true, this is the real source of Karma and not the misunderstood concept of Karma where every little action is recorded and weighed. Thank you again for your posts. I look forward to more conversations.