Evolutionary theory vs. creation mythology

[northjetty]

It is evident in the world today that there is a 'large split' between those who favor the creation myth's of old as a valid understanding of the 'age of the world' and of it's origin as a planet, and those who 'oppose it'. This method of reading mythology as 'literal' was the 'traditional way' of dating the planet for most of the 'western world' for many centuries. When we began to 'realize, here in the west, that the 'earth' was 'not' the 'center of the solar system', as the book Genesis cleary suggests, things began to change a lot in the field of 'science'. A 'conflict' arose between the former religious idea's of the 'literal' interpreting of mythology and the newly discovered 'observations' of our solar system.

In time, 'modern observations' gave way to geological, biological, and fossil evidences that seemed to further contradict the 'literalistic' teachings of many 'institutional' religious views here in the west. The 'new found science' took on an 'opposing perspective' to just about everything that the ancient mythologies were describing in there 'literal sense'. Around the early 1900's AD, Joseph Campbell, an accomplished professor of comparative world mythology, had come to an 'indepth understanding' of the 'folly' that had long been associated with the 'creation myths'. He had realized very clearly that they had been long interpreted as referring to tangible 'concrete facts' that give a direct 'historical' understanding of the world - which is in error. Campbell had published a book entitled "The Hero With a Thousand faces, which fully disclosed the reality that the ancient mythologies are actually speaking in the 'language of metaphor' all the while, hence they were never meant to be taken 'literally' in the first place - which is the 'foundation' of the 'error' associated with dating the earth based on 'literal interpretations' of ancient 'creation myths'.

This ultimately results in the full 'realization' that the current 'conflict' between 'modern evolutionary discoveries' and the 'creation mythologies of old' is ultimately 'unfounded at best', and the conflict holds 'little value' to anyone who has been properly educated on this issue. The worlds mythologies did not, and do not, relate direct concrete 'literal understandings' of the 'origins' of the planet earth - this is hard fact. However, it was discovered that the old mythologies do give a 'metaphorical' sense of 'unity' between the 'infinite and the finite', the 'God and man", the 'one and the many', through a 'storyline perspective' involving personified characters and so on. By understanding 'every angle' involved in the ancient 'mythologies', in relationship to the 'found truth's' of modern physics/philosophy/metaphysics, we can now relate the 'truth's about existence' that the ancient mythologies have always been describing through 'metaphor' all along, while the majority of the world has greatly misinterpreted them. The modern 'conficts' lingering around between 'evolution and creation' are actually 'unfounded at best' - they rely on a 'misunderstanding' as the very 'foundation' of there position - in short "castles built upon sand".

northjetty/space

[northjetty]

quote:

"The first philosophy (Metaphysics) is universal and is exclusively concerned with primary substance. ... And here we will have the science to study that which is, both in its essence and in the properties which, just as a thing that is, it has. ... That among entities there must be some cause which moves and combines things. ... There must then be a principle of such a kind that its substance is activity. - (Aristotle, 340BC)

Quote:

"A human being is part of the whole called by us a universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty…… The true value of a human being is determined primarily by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. …… We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive."- (Albert Einstein, 1954)

Quote:

The Wave Structure of fundamental Particles evolved over five years. It began with a simple speculation that waves in Space could explain the de Broglie wavelength. It continued to agree with more laws and observations than I first expected and I was amazed. The 'Particle' is two identical spherical waves traveling radically in opposite directions so that together they form a spherical standing wave. The wave which travels inward towards the center is called an In-Wave, and the wave traveling outward is an Out-Wave. The nominal location of the ''Particle'' is the Wave-Center, but as must be true for any charged Particle, it has presence everywhere in Space because the charge forces extend throughout the Universe. - (Milo Wolff, 1990)

Quote:

"When we look around us in space we see that we are surrounded by other matter (planets, stars, galaxies, galaxy clusters, etc.). The WSM cosmology deduces that this is true wherever you are in infinite space. However, we only see a finite region of infinite space and other matter, which we call the finite spherical universe. i.e. WSM cosmology is founded on the most simple solution - describing an infinite eternal space full of matter, but matter only interacts with other matter in a finite spherical (10^80) region of an infinite space (which we call the 'observable universe'.)" - Geoff Haselhurst

You can feel free to take the WSM 'challenge' to try and show a 'simpler explaination for observable reality' using the accepted laws of science;

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Most-Simple-Scientific-Theory-Reality.htm


Quote:

It is obvious to any thoughtful person that our world is in great trouble, that we are heading rapidly towards self destruction due to overpopulation, destruction of nature, pollution of food air and water, climate change, etc. It is also obvious that there is only one solution, to found our societies on truth (true knowledge of reality) rather than past myths and customs that have proven to be incorrect (literalizing the mythologies). Most importantly, it is now clear that there is a 'correct language' for describing physical reality. The 'error' has been our focus on the 'particle / field' structure of matter in 'space-time' rather than the Wave Structure of Matter in infinite Space. This may seem trivial at first glance, but it is profoundly important because it explains how matter (and thus we humans) are interconnected to other matter in the space around us. This knowledge will transform Humanity by ending the 'postmodern uncertainty' that plaques the sciences (physics, philosophy, metaphysics) and provide 'true guidance' for how we can think and live on our precious little planet with much greater harmony amongst 'ourselves' and 'Nature' from which we have indeed 'evolved'. - Geoff Haselhurst 2006

We now have a very 'strong position' to hold on 'true reality' with the emerging 'quantum wave physics' of our modern era. Everything that 'does exist' has 'space itself' as it's common factor, thus it has SPACE as it's 'true being'.

This isn't all that different from a solid understanding of the traditional term 'God' as it turns out - the primary substance of life. It's actually very similar to the term God in several ways, but this can be 'hard to see' on account of the direction that our 'early mythological writings' have 'evolved' over the years into the dominant literalized 'popular world religions' of today.

The grand realization of the 'ancient mythologies' is in 'identifying' with the 'ultimate factor of existence' - the absolute. This means understanding that 'all forms' are 'interconnected' and 'one' in a very direct way, and that it's essentially this 'interconnecting factor' which is the 'God' of mythology/theology, the transcendence.

This is what the early pagan/gentile mythologies express in there content, and they actually 'predate' the book of genesis in the western bible as accurate history shows time and again through modern research. What does that mean? It means that this is an age old 'truth' about history that we've neglected to fully understand in the west - in popular western thought. We often times feel that the bible is the 'oldest creation account in world', mostly because it's written as if it is the oldest - it's written as if it came before all of the other creation myths and that they came from 'it'. I've researched this issue over the years and here's an abrupt summary of a little bit of the 'knowledge' that I've found with the researching.

"The Gospel Truth" by Alexander S. Holub Ph.D

-p.17 "Many today would like to believe that the bible is the divinely inspired "word of god" and is a truly unique series of books; that the writers of the bible were especially "blessed" and had direct contact and connection with the universal deity. What is found upon investigation is that this is not the case at all. The bible was either plagiarized, word-for-word, or directly paraphrased much older PAGAN mythological and legendary sources...

...Also very little in the biblical texts are actually unique to the people who wrote them. Further, the GOD spoken of in the bible, YAHWEY by name, who eventually became the UNIVERSAL DIETY, began as 'one' of a 'number' of 'eastern Mediterranean tribal deities' (as you shall see, the name of the god of the Hebrews, also came from pre-Hebrew times and is PAGAN in origin). It was only due to the stubborn persistence of the priests of 'one particular faction' of believers that eventually their 'personal god' was raised in stature to supreme diety.

p.22 The name 'Yahweh' (I am) appears to not even be a Hebrew name at all...The earliest references to 'Yahweh' are seen into the fourteenth to thirteenth century BCE Egyptian writings (I was, I am, I will be). It is also seen in pre-Phoenician writings in nebo, Samaria and northern Sinai and Syria. What is deduced from this is that YAHWEY is a PAGAN DIETY originally. What is important about not only the first verse in genesis, but also the whole story of creation, is that it is seen 'word-for-word' in 'ancient Babylonian texts' which date from somewhere around 2100 BCE."

P.26 " The bible is a 'restatement' of more 'ancient myths'. With a little research you can easily find that much of the genesis myth comes from the 'Babylonians'. The 'flood myth' is seen in at least 400 different cultures world wide and many of those possessing this myth are much 'older' than the judean/israelites. The stories of Noah's sons, Jacob's wrestling with an angel (from the wrestling match of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, c. 2100 BCE), Issac's "sacrifice", Moses in the reed basket, Solomons judgement, the Cain and able myth (which is taken directly from the Persians without even changing the names), and the Samson myth including his destruction of the temple, via the pillars, all came from legends and myths which 'predated' the existence of the judean/israelites by many CENTURIES."


Once again, this isn't to say that there's no 'God', it just shows how the term 'God' has 'evolved over time'. One major consideration here is that the priests that had come across these various ancient stories, from the priests of other religious traditions, were 'competing with one another' in the long run for the attention of the 'common people'. I think that this is why we find stories in the bible that were 'obviously taken in from elsewhere', and then having 'name changes take place' in the stories, and finally turning into what appears to be an 'original story' after years and years of 'isolating the common people' to their 'own religion' and 'forbidding the knowledge' of any 'other religion' - this is all in the interests of the local priest's of course. But this is understandable in that it's just 'human nature' to behave that way, even for a priest or religious leader - we can't get too caught up in the 'blame game' here, but we should consider the 'reality of the situation', nonetheless, if we are to find the actual 'truth'.

The only real reason that I can see for the current 'theological war' raging against 'evolutionary discoveries', is in taking a 'literal' approach to the book of genesis and to the 'older mythical creation stories' that the book of genesis has been 'modeled after' in it's 'mythic structure' - we know this in comparative mythology for certain. During the middle ages period certain Christian men of power had started with the character of 'Jesus' in the new testament bible stories, and then moved backwards generation to generation back to 'Adam', the first 'literal' man created on the planet, along the lines of taking a 'literal approach' to these ancient mythic images. These men had come up with the 'earth' as dating to around the '4th millenium BC' by using this 'method' of dating the earth itself.

Obviously, genesis is not a 'literal' account of the creation of the universe nor of this planet that 'exist's within the universe' in true reality. If you look 'very closely' at the book of genesis you can clearly see that it has the 'earth' as existing 'three days' before the 'sun, moon, or stars', hence it has the earth 'literally' being older than the UNIVERSE ITSELF. The biggest folly in the 'literal' interpretation of genesis is that we have three 'evenings and mornings' taking place 'before' the 'sun, moon, or stars existed' in order for us to even calculate 'literal evenings and mornings' - to count 'literal days'. Day, is when we face the sun (a star), Night is when we face away from the sun (a star). How in hell are there 'literal days' occurring with no 'sun', or any other 'stars' in the night sky, or a 'universe' out there for the earth to 'exist in' for that matter? How do we have a 'literal planet' existing before the 'universe' around the planet which the planet is held within and that the planet is made out of?

Most people would agree here in that this story is 'very obviously' not to be taken 'literally', but then most 'theologians' would want to make a 'fast move' towards preserving a 'literal Adam & Eve', nevertheless, and 'negate human evolution'. This is impossible of course. If we know for certain that we are 'not' dealing with 'literal days' here in any way shape or form, how then do we have a 'literal man and women' being created on a 'literal 6th day', in story that is 'quite obviously' not to be seen as 'literal' at all in the first place?

To go past these 'literal' misinterpretations and discover the 'bright side' of all of this mythic imagery, from a 'proper mythological context', these stories are clearly seen to be 'metaphors' that deal with the real issue of 'eternity and time', 'God and man', 'the one and many' - this metaphorical aspect of mythology turns out to be mirroring a solid understanding of 'true physics' as we are now discovering. The 'God' that creates things in 'myth' represents 'existence itself', the 'eternity' with 'no beginning' and 'no ending'. In metaphor, the 'God' forms all of the creation out of 'itself', or out of it's 'own mouth' in some cases - the evolved genesis myth.

The creation story that we find in the book of genesis was created in large part by a combination of the 'Babylonian and Persian mythologies' as I've quoted from one of my biblical research books above. The book of Genesis that we read today was written down in the 'Hebrew language' some time 'after' the Hebrew people were released from captivity in ancient 'Babylon', by the 'Persians', that had come along and conquered the 'Babylonians', thus serving as a 'major influence' in somehow giving the 'Hebrew priesthood' a mythological 'cosmology' that is quite obviously a combination of the two 'older high societies'. The primary element that was adopted from the 'Persians' was the 'Zoroastrian doctrine' of a 'fallen corrupt nature' - a conflict between 'man and nature'.

'Zoroastrianism' was the religion of the 'Persians', where modern 'Iran' currently resides today. As a belief system, it had more or less taken the ancient eastern 'yin yang' concept of a 'balance' between the 'light and darkness', and then 'customized' it somewhat by creating a 'conflict' between the 'light' and the 'darkness' with it's mythological structure - we see the beginnings of 'yin vs. yang' in a 'war' with one another now (The sons of light vs. the sons of darkness). Here we can clearly see the early mythological evolution of the 'concept' of a perfectly created 'nature' after which an 'evil force' had entered and perverted it - the very theme of the modern bible stories today.

This is how the 'fall of man' idea originated as a Zoroastrian monotheistic 'pagan concept' originally, and then became 'adopted' into the 'Judean religion' some time after the fact, along with many of the other 'fundamental points' that are contained within the modern biblical writings that we read today. What does this say about biblical fundamentalism? What does this say about issues like pantheism and blasphemy? It says that our 'modern popular western religions' have actually 'evolved' out of these 'older pagan concepts', even though the modern western religions want to 'reject' this 'historical reality' tooth and nail. Modern Historical 'biblical research' shows a very clear picture as to how we've had the 'middle way', or 'central perspective', removed from the 'God concept' in order to side with one extreme or another - side with the light or the darkness, not fully understanding the 'unity factor' that is to be found in understanding both by an 'enlightened perception of nature'. This mental image of a 'separation' and an isolated 'discreteness' is an optical illusion created by the 'particle effect of matter' according to modern physics, so I would think that this 'deception' played a significant role in our ancient 'mythologies' having evolved into the modern 'theologies' of today. The 'deceptive factor' of our 'senses' gives us the impression that things are 'discrete' to one another in space - this is very misleading.

It was well 'after' this interaction with the Persian Zoroastrian priesthood took place, that their doctrine of a 'fallen nature separated from God', that we find the story of genesis coming into 'existence' in Judaism on the time lines. Obviously the more you study the issue of creation in the bible, the less 'original' our biblical mythology becomes, and the less 'literal and historically accurate' it becomes as well in a lot of cases. This is the 'simple truth' that's laying around in the world today for anyone who searches for 'truth' to discover for themselves. This doesn't say that there's no 'God' necessarily, it simply shows the 'error in our interpretations' and past translations of the ancient literature that deals with term 'God' - it shows how the 'idea of God' was expressed in 'personified images', and with time it was became promoted as something that exists as 'separate from nature' altogether, as opposed to the term 'God' originally referring to 'nature itself' and the 'eternity that binds it all together'.

This is why it is 'improper' to think that there is a 'valid fight' taking place between 'evolutionary theory and creation mythology' in the world today -the fight itself is 'unfounded' in reality. There is no 'literal' theory of creation to be found in the worlds mythologies, or any of the evolved biblical writings that we read today for that matter, even though many people today fight very hard to say that there is - this whole idea is built upon 'misinterpreting ancient mythological symbols' as it's foundation. The modern genesis creation myth that we are reading is a 'metaphorical text' which has been cut, pasted, and told several times over - it's not a direct 'literal scientific theory' of our origins as a species as some people today try to claim over and over again - they are in clear 'error'. Life originating here on the planet, via natural the processes of evolution, is the only 'sound understanding' that we have to date to account for our 'origins' as a species. The ancient mythologies, and the later evolved biblical writings, do not give us a direct 'literal' concrete understanding of the creation of this planet, nor of the life on this planet in a 'historically accurate sense. The simple truth is that there is 'mystery' associated with our origins and our modern evidences of evolving are the best understanding that we have to date as to how we came to exist on this planet which is in space - The fossil and geological evidence are all that we have in terms of 'hard facts'.

We're still discovering more and more about evolutionary theory even now, and we've certainly gained a lot of head way by finding the many different connecting 'skulls of our past' through 'modern archaeology'. These modern discoveries have caused an immediate 'tension' between 'western theology' and 'western science' of course, but the tension is only caused by the ongoing 'persistence' of our good old 'literalists' towards trying to 'concretize the worlds ancient mythologies', thereby 'distorting the proper mythological content' to some degree - this 'mis-interpreting' does no justice at all to the 'truths' about the cosmos that are found, via metaphor, in the ancient mythologies. As I've stated earlier, we're now discovering through 'quantum wave physics' that we're made entirely out of quantum 'energy waves' that exist within an 'eternal' amount of space, a 'continuous wave medium'. We are the 'energy' of 'space itself' in other words. This is the 'found truth', the 'common reality' that we all share with one another no matter what -the 'unifying factor' of all things.

This physics can be very 'spiritually sound' when one considers the implications of the new discovery and it's understanding of how 'eternity' relates to 'time'. The 'spiritual outlook' in the science certainly involves the 'evolution of energy waves' coming together in the continuous wave medium to form 'spherical wave centers'. Then, the very same 'energy wave centers' go through a complex system of 'combining' with one another to finally result in planets, nature, and the 'human species' here on the earth right now. The mythological "breathe of life" as it goes, has actually come from 'within' along these lines of understanding the truth about 'space as existence' - eternal space as the eternal God. This can be a very 'spiritual view' of the 'evolution of our species' that is more or less 'in accord' with the 'proper context' of our worlds mythologies and the 'valid points' that they are trying to express, via metaphor, about the relationship between GOD and MAN, the INFINITE and the FINITE, the ONE and the MANY. Our spiritual senses, when broken down to there 'basic simplicity', are merely expressing that we are 'one' with the 'whole' - that each individual is connected to all of it somehow. That's certainly what we're looking at here by linking the 'natural evolution of the species' back to it's 'origins' as 'finite information carrying energy waves' that exist within an 'eternal' amount of 'continuous space wave medium' - if the parallels aren't totally 'obvious' just yet.

Now, having penetrated human understanding to the quantum wave energy level, I can more less see the actual 'valid points' of the 'ancient mythologies' that have been passed down over the centuries to finally become our 'popular world religions' - I can see the 'optimistic side' of the mythologies and later theologies. There is a 'benefit' to learning the 'truth' about all of this 'translative confusion' in the long run. The ancient mythologies are quite simply connecting us to the whole, that's it. To go any further than that and try to 'literalize' these stories into 'concrete historical lessons' about the origins of earth and the origins of our species, we've already gone way to far, and we then and therefore suffer the 'follies', 'paradoxes', and 'deceptions', for having gone to far - we start thinking that we are not directly connected to everything else and deflecting the 'actual truth' out of the ancient messages. The worlds mythologies are about human beings as but 'extensions' of a 'transcendent energy source' which 'informs all things'.

I've learned from researching through comparative world mythology over the years, that living in a 'self aware' sense of the 'awe and wonder' of our own 'existence' as living objects here amoung nature and the cosmos, is the 'main point' that our ancient mythologies, and essentially modern religions, are actually expressing to us in the first place. That's a message that is certainly good enough for me - it doesn't seem to 'conflict' with a proper understanding of modern physical science in any way when the science is directly dealing with the topic of 'the infinite and the finite', 'God and man', 'the one and the many'.

"The inward wave rotates phase at the center, reverses direction, and becomes the outward wave. The factor 1/r causes the wave amplitude to decrease inversely as the radius increases. At r -> 0, the amplitude of the separate waves is INFINITE. But when the two solutions are COMBINED the opposite signed infinities CANCEL and a FINITE standing wave results"-Wolff

The current war between 'evolution and creation' is a war that need not even exist today - it's unfounded at best. The 'truth' for all to know is that 'evolution is creation' - it's how things are created from 'one thing' into the 'many various things' that have a 'necessary connection' to one another. We can clearly see how the 'infinite' itself becomes the 'finite' with our modern physical advancements. This verifies the subject matter of many of our worlds ancient mythologies when they are put into there simple structure and metaphorical context.

northjetty/space

[northjetty]

nisarga

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 74

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:44 am


Quote:

Truth is a pathless land. ~ J. Krishnamurti.

"What follows is the speech made by Jiddu Krishnamurti in 1929 when he dissolved the Order of the Star. The Order of the Star was the organisation built around Krishnamurti by Theosophists who selected him at the age of 13 to be the vehicle for the return of the Christ, or Maitreya. He was raised accordingly, but after his enlightment, he refused the role that has been prepared for him, disbanded the organisation of which he was the head, and continued to teach on his own. His speech was made during the Dutch Camp of Ommen, in front of more than three thousand Star members, and with many thousands of Dutch people listening on the radio. Many of the concepts that are present in this speech are worth to be pondered upon in the light of almost 70 years of spiritual history.

"We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain....

I maintain that Truth is a 'pathless land', and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any 'religion', by any 'sect'. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by 'any path whatsoever', cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley....

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organisations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this....

If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussion year after year.

A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?....

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally....

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organisation of the Star become different?....

You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organisation?....

No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves into work, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough....

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity....

You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?....

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you 'really understand', and hence are capable of living in the 'eternal'. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."-Jiddu Krishnamurti


There is no path to Truth; there is only the path of Truth.

A path is formed by walking it.

All Good Things,

James

[Aireal]

Northjetty

You hit on a major point. Mythologies are in the "language of metaphor" and not to be taken "literally".

In truth there need not be any conflict between evolutionary theory and creation mythology.

However I can read cuneiform tablets and can refute the "findings" from "The Gospel Truth"

Of course the creation story is found word for word in Babylonian texts. Abraham, the father of the Jews, was the son of the high priest of the city of Ur in ancient Sumer. Him and his father had a falling out over their religion. At the time they had 7 major gods and a number of minor ones. Just like many ancient cultures, they started with a belief in one god that became corrupted through time and conquest. When you capture a city, it is easier to let them worship their old god, rather than convert them to yours. Plus it cuts down on rebellions.

As the fight between Abraham and his father grew, and Abraham followers increased in number, it caused civil unrest in the religious state of Sumer. As Abraham was too important of a person just to kill, he was exiled instead. This event was so well recorded that we know the exact number of goods, people and animals that left the country with him.

The Greeks also had the concept of a single god who made the other gods, and built a temple to him. As they did not know his name, it was called the Temple of the Unknown God.

For the Egyptians it was Ptah, the creator god who made all of creation and the gods, but cared little for worship from his creations. In the course of time, he became a minor god in the patheon.

Alaxander S. Holub Ph.D needs to go back and read a few thousand more tablets and scrolls before he thinks he knows all about an ancient cultures mythology. Placing the texts in the proper age groups also helps. Sumer lasted for thousands of years as a culture. Much can change in that time span.

Also Zoroastrian as a religion did not start till after the Jewish faith was in place. Indeed it was the zoroastrian who got the belief of a "fallen corrupt nature' from the Jews, not the other way around. Indeed they looked to the Jews for the birth of the savior. This event was to be the sign that the time of zoroastrian religion had come to an end, as all his followers were to follow the savior teachings when he was reveled. And this is just what happened. The christen and Islamic faiths absorbed their worshipers over time. Also Zoroastrian was not the original religion of the early Persians. Time-line is important.



Still these points do not distract from the goal of your post. Creation myths, if taken as a metaphor, do not conflict with the science of evolution. The parts of your post that tie W.S.M. into the topic are quite good. But one must be careful of other sources, as viewer may not agree with them, and therefore take objection to W.S.M. due to what they see as connection with other beliefs.

[northjetty]

Thanks Aireal, that was a good commentary. I posted a few 'summarizing' statements above from the gospel truth book. There's a lot of information there that is confirmed through Campbells teaching and some of it shows up a lot on most of the biblical television programs these days. There's a lot more to it all of this of course, I was just showing some of the summary's. But I like to hear about biblical history and I enjoyed your summary of the Abram-Abraham story. I have never heard of the details that you provided before in my reading, so it's new to me.

I appreciate your concern as well, in terms of printing anything at all that might distract from the 'validity' of the WSM physics. That's why I'm going to post ideas up to be looked over by all of you guys before settling on content for a book and such-I want you guys to pick it apart for error and correction if I post it here. I'll go with what I see to be of a 'solid foundation' before ever trying to print something.

You're the first person to take issue with Holub's research so far. The people on campbell's site didn't really find a problem with it-they had heard most of it before through other sources. They did have a problem with the 'conspiracy theory image' that it might suggest however. I'm going to make sure that I rid my writing of any 'Da Vinci Code' type conspiracy image-I dont' want to go there, I just want to show the truth.

I may end up sticking solely to Campbell for the religious and mythic commentary in the end. As a world famous professor of mythology he's far more popular and qualified to draw conclusions from-his foundations are solid as he spent a life time debating priests, pastors, and zealous literalists in general. Thanks for the commentary Aireal, you had some very valuable suggestions.

north jetty/space

[Aireal]

Northjetty

If you can find it, the book "Near and Middle Eastern Texts in Relation to the Old Testament" lists some of the tablets I referred to, including the tally of his group at the border post. They were as bad as us, requiring all government records to be made in triplicate. As their fired clay tablets last quite well, we have a vast amount of material translated, and even more that's never been translated. Photographs of both can be bought, along with the translation if available. When the local collage built a new library, I donated all my copies to them.

I have no idea how many ancient texts, scrolls and tablets I have read in my life. At least a good number of them have never been printed. Some I did the translating myself as none before me had done so, and I never published my translations.

So it is only that I have read so much that I disagree with Holub, for on the surface he seems to be quite correct. Also he may not be able to translate a some languages, and must depend on published translations, a rather limited source. The number of people actively working on translating and publishing cuneiform tablets is quite small, especially when the volume of material is considered.

I have not been the campbell's site in awhile, I need to pay it a visit. I did post some of my work on how religions changed over time. Most people agreed with it, but did not seem to grasp its implications. So I did not add any details as the thread continued.

When it comes to using a source for religious and mythic commentary, Cambell is one of the best qualified. Also, no one should find any of his work objectionable, he always showed respect for every culture and religion he looked at.

I did think of a good surfing related explanation for WSM. In my post http://www.physics-philosophy-metaphysics.com/forum/w-s-m-and-bohr-s-hydrogen-atom-t511.html I gave a new definition of "at rest" for the electron in its orbit. Instead of being at rest, neither receiving or losing energy, as in the current particle model, the electron is losing the same amount of energy it is gaining from waves.

A surfer riding a wave knows exactly what this is like. He is losing energy as gravity drags him down, while the wave lifts him up. When they balance, you are in a sweet spot and could ride that wave around the world. As long as you don't hit land that is.

[northjetty]

Aireal, that's extremely cool

Thanks for the book suggestion-I'm going to Google it and see if I can get a copy. That you yourself can translate some of these texts, is extremely cool as well

Hey, If you would, check out this link www.magicalegypt.com I own this series. John Anthony West and Laird Scranton have an extremely interesting interview in episode #8.

I would like to know how you perceive this series? You can get a summary of each disc as a preview. There are some rather interesting understandings that arise out of this research, but it is very controversial.

northjetty/space

[Aireal]

Northjetty

I have not seen that series, but it looks good. I looked at the previews on the site. I wish my Blood Brother was still alive, Egypt was his field of expertise. He mentioned some of the same things they noticed, I think he would have approved. I should look at the series if I get the chance.

[northjetty]

Episode 4- The temple in man

The Egyptians had built the temple at Luxor to correspond to the human body. The brick joints of the temple correspond to the area of the body that is being described, such as falling on the knee, when you're in the area of the temple corresponding to the knee, or Head, when you are at the head of the temple etc. It also perfectly corresponds to the Chakra system of the east. They go over this in detail.

It states that the Egyptians believed that Man is not simply the creation of the cosmos, rather man 'is' the cosmos. There's a graphic illustration of a man looking at the stars and realizing that he is 'one' with the heavens. The Egyptians knew of this reality for some reason. They believed that the same laws that govern the cosmos, govern man, as the 'two' are 'one'.

Episode 3- Descent

Here, West goes into the Uga cycles of endless time. They begin to show the correspondence of our digressing downward into about the 500 AD era, where we bottomed out for a while, corresponding with the 'Kali Uga'. The hypothesis is that all of the hard work being done in Egypt was to 'preserve knowledge' so it would last throughout the oncoming 'dark age' cycle of 'human understanding'-they knew that we were headed down hill. Then, when humanity would grow to a level where it could appreciate the knowledge once again, there it would be, preserved in the stone. Oddly, we are at level now where we know as 'fact' that man 'is' the cosmos-the two are one. I've been trying to contact West and introduce him to the WSM Cosmology-It may be of use to some of his research?

north jetty/space

[northjetty]

Here is another interesting factor to Holub's study:

"It is well known that the book of Job was a paraphrasing of an older Babylonian tale (most likely a play) with some changes thrown in. The date of it's final form was about '538 BC'. The reason for this is because of the incorporation of SATAN (one of God's own Angels) in the story. You will recall that in the earliest books of Hebrew scriptures 'both' good and evil were brought about by 'God' and it was not until after the Israelites were freed from the Babylonian captivity that they took on the concept of Satan. Hence, Job did not get it's final form until sometime after 538 BC."

"It was after this time (the destruction of the temple) when the concept of Satan was introduced into the Biblical writings. Remember, prior to this time it was 'God' who brought 'both' good and evil. With the introduction of the good God Ahura Mazda, and the evil God Angra Mainyu from the Persian mythology, an explanation of why the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the diaspora was given credence. Obviously, Yahweh would never have done this to his "chosen people", so some 'other force' had to have done the deed."

Many people today think that there is some 'literal' SATAN watching their ever move and so forth. That's a difficult position for the would be fundamentalist's to hold in light of the 'historical evidence' of the 'evolution' of the very 'term' and 'concept' itself. That the character of 'Satan' in the Hebrew scriptures is a late edition, is well documented. People had go back at some point and try to connect this 'new edition' to the old 'serpent' in the garden of Eden story in order to make it look as if 'Satan' had been there all along - this is an obvious error. The Hell, Fire, and Brimstone sermons of the majority of fundamentalist Christian sects today, which try to strong arm people into blind submission, all fall apart at the seems in light of 'solid historical evidence'. This is a clear case of people 'imagining' something, and then making it a concrete 'fact' in due time. The real deceiver is ourselves, found in our natural senses that give us a feeling of 'separateness' from the 'one thing that exists'. The 'metaphor' is of a 'great deceiver', and that certainly has been found out to be our natural senses and imaginations. To defeat SATAN, is to defeat the sense of feeling 'separate' from the primary substance of existence. Separation=deception.

north jetty/space

[haselhurst]

Interesting posts you guys.
And very important for our world given its religious myth foundations.

Separation=deception

Exactly!

"The notion that all these fragments is separately existent is evidently an illusion, and this illusion cannot do other than lead to endless conflict and confusion. Indeed, the attempt to live according to the notion that the fragments are really separate is, in essence, what has led to the growing series of extremely urgent crises that is confronting us today. Thus, as is now well known, this way of life has brought about pollution, destruction of the balance of nature, over-population, world-wide economic and political disorder and the creation of an overall environment that is neither physically nor mentally healthy for most of the people who live in it. Individually there has developed a widespread feeling of helplessness and despair, in the face of what seems to be an overwhelming mass of disparate social forces, going beyond the control and even the comprehension of the human beings who are caught up in it."
(David Bohm, Wholeness and the Implicate Order, 1980)

[northjetty]

Now for a close look at something that the fundamentalist's thrive on for power and crowd control. Prophecy, is the hub of all 'exclusive' religion. Having modern prophets and so forth is the Hub of Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, and the Jehovah's witness. Prophets are generally seen as false, if so much as one of there prophecies turns out to be inaccurate. Here's a look into the actual history of biblical prophecy itself and how it relates to the aspiring modern prophets of today.

"A lot has been said of the prophets of old. A prophet was referred to as the son of man (Ben-Adam). He was supposedly divinely inspired and in direct communication with God. The era of the prophets had ended sometime between 400 to 450 BC. Consequently, in the Judean/Israelite religion prophets were not raised up after that period.

The prophets were priests. They followed a specific point of view and directed their prophecies to specific outcomes. As stated in the Hebrew scriptures, the prophets were called seers (1 Samuel 9:9) so there is no difference between a seer and a prophet. The major difference is between a 'prophet' and a 'sorcerer. According to the scriptures, the prophet of God is '100-percent' accurate all of the time and apparently foretells 'good things'. The sorcerer, at that time, ws one who augured ill-fortune through signs and omens. So, if someone told of 'bad things' to occur (e.g. the destruction of the whole world), he or she was considered a 'sorcerer', not a 'prophet' of God.

It is interesting to note that there are 'false prophecies' in the bible. Take a look and compare the prophetic utterances of the prophets and actual history. You will find more that you bargained for. Since there are false prophecies in the scriptures, then it must be concluded that the bible as a true prophecy of God is invalid, by it's very own standard.

1. Syria will be delivered to Ahab (I kings 20:13). This never happened

2. The Israelites will be in Babylon for 70 years (Jeremiah 29:10). They were there for 48 years.

3. The birth of Immanuel (Isiah 7:14). This verse is not a prophecy of the coming Jesus of Jesus for if you will read the accompanying verses you will find that it pertains to events that recently occurred and one that was immediately expected. It actually refers to the installation of a king. The 'son' referred to here is the king who is the adopted son of the national God Yahweh. For references see Samuel 7:13-14 and Psalms 2:7, the latter of which refers specifically to David.

4. All of the nations shall flow into Yahwey's house in Israel (Isaiah 2:2) and there will be 'total peace' (Isaiah 2:4). This never happened.

5. Jonah's prediction of the destruction of Nineveh (Jonah 3:4). This never happened.

6. Micah's prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem (Micah 3:12). This never happened.

7. Israel's distress will be relieved by Michael, the archangel, rising up (Daniel 12: 1-3). This never happened. This verse, by the way, is the verse which the Jehovah's witness use to claim that Jesus was actually Michael, the archangel.

8. Ahijah's prophecy that Solomon's kingdom would be rendered from his hand and given to Jeroboam (I kings 11:30-32). Solomon died and the kingdom passed on to his successor, Rehoboam.

9. The rebuilding of the temple after the Babylonian captivity (Ezekiel 40-42). As prophesied, it never happened. There are also those that doubt that the first temple even existed. If Solomon did not exist, what is the possibility of the temple 'he' built existing?

10. Ezekiel's prophecy of the siege fo Tyre (Ezekiel 26). This siege continued for 13 years and ended in a stalemate." - Alexander S. Holub P.h.D

This is rather 'uncomfortable' position to be in when you're a fundamentalist's on a crusade to convert people with the power of infallibility of the Biblical prophecies. All of the big 'end of days' scare tactics used by these fundamentalist's rest on the 'accuracy' of both a 'literal' SATAN and of 'literal' prophecies that give a specific 'end' of time to occur. At this point in my research it seems fairly obvious that these specific 'cultural myths' hold little value in terms of 'truth' and honesty. It's sad to see people in this day and age going around speaking about things that they themselves no somewhere between very little, to absolutely nothing at all about - the modern fundamentalist's of today. I've spoken to both the 'Jehovah's witness' and the 'Mormons' about these things and they could run away from me 'fast enough' - They were both in a real big hurry to get away from me. I no longer have the problem of these religious sects knocking on my front door.

north jetty/space

[Aireal]

Northjetty

Episode 4
Of note, the oldest Egyptian stone buildings are of a completely different style than any other construction. Massive stone blocks, set in a squat, squarish design. Makes one wonder.


Holub's Study:
I would like to see his proof for the statement the the Jew's got the concept of SATAN during the Babylonian captivity.

The Gods of the Babylonian empire was based more on Order / Chaos rather than Good / Evil. Gods that we would considered evil were on the "good" side as they fulfilled a role. Guarding the gates to the outside and the underworld. Punishing evil doers and matters related to war and death. All these and more were places where an "Evil" God could fit in with the natural order of things. The "Evil" Gods and demons of their culture were more beings of chaos. Bent on destroying civilization, all order and killing mankind, returning things to the pure chaos from which they came. Yet even this statement is an over - simplification, the truth is even more complex.

Because the Jews and the Babylonians have a common background, they share some things, but can have a different perspective on other points. This makes comparisons between the two very tricky.

Now it is true that Satan does not make an appearance till latter in the Bible. There is good reason for this, easily seen in the Bible.

The early cases of God's wrath, like the flood, and the leading of the Jews out of Egypt, are meant to show Gods displeasure and power. Even then, the involvement of Angels were common. At the destruction of the twin cites on the plain and during the plagues in Egypt. The roles of Angles in these epic tales were not the point, but it is clear that they are involved.

When Satan makes his appearance in the Book of Job, this is still true. Satan must get Gods permission before he can harm Job, but the method of testing Job is left up to Satan. It is not until after Satan is cast down to Earth and gains dominion over the earth that he can inflict troubles on man without Gods permission. Because of this, he quickly takes on an important role in the affairs of mankind, and receives a lot more attention.

The evolution of the concepts of God and Satan can be clearly seen in the Bible, no need for an outside explanation.

Also a note on the destruction of temple and the exile into Babylon.

You quoted Holub "It was after this time (the destruction of the temple) when the concept of Satan was introduced into the Biblical writings...Obviously, Yahweh would never have done this to his "chosen people", so some 'other force' had to have done the deed."

Clearly he has never read the bible. Yahweh told the Jews why and for how long the exile would last. Yes God loves his "chosen people", but there are things he loves more.

The Earth. In Hebrew, the name for the Earth is female, and she is referred to as the Bride of God.

God commanded that the Jews leave the land follow 1 out of 7 years. They did not. Their exile was to last one year for every year that they did not give the land her rest, and that she could rest for that time only with them gone. However the exact number of those years God did not reveal to them.

The more you quote Holub, the less I like him. The list of 10 "false prophecies' are taken out of context, or otherwise show his lake of Bible knowledge. Just of the top of my head:

3. The birth of Immanuel (Isiah 7:14). Wrong. It is about the birth of Jesus. God cursed the kingly line of David in that they may never again rule. Joseph was of the kingly line, Mary was of the house of David, but not the kingly line. Under Jewish law, an adopted child has all the rights as one born to you. So Jesus was of the house of David through Mary. When Joseph adopted him as his firstborn, he had all the rights of the firstborn. As he was not of Joseph's blood, Jesus did not fall under the curse. So he could have been crowned King of the Jews under their law.

4. All of the nations shall flow into Yahwey's house in Israel (Isaiah 2:2) and there will be 'total peace' (Isaiah 2:4). This never happened. Isaiah has a lot of end time predictions, so how do we know it is yet to come to pass?

5. Jonah's prediction of the destruction of Nineveh (Jonah 3:4). This never happened.
6. Micah's prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem (Micah 3:12). This never happened.
They repented and was spared, read the rest of the story.
Jonah even complained to God for forgiving Nineveh, because he hated them and wanted their destruction.

7. Israel's distress will be relieved by Michael, the archangel, rising up (Daniel 12: 1-3). This never happened. This verse, by the way, is the verse which the Jehovah's witness use to claim that Jesus was actually Michael, the archangel.
See number 4. above, same true with Daniel.

9. The rebuilding of the temple after the Babylonian captivity (Ezekiel 40-42). As prophesied, it never happened. There are also those that doubt that the first temple even existed. If Solomon did not exist, what is the possibility of the temple 'he' built existing?

Then what was the temple that Herod replaced when he built his temple? You know, the one the Romans destroyed, or did that not happen too?

10. Ezekiel's prophecy of the siege of Tyre (Ezekiel 26). This siege continued for 13 years and ended in a stalemate." - Alexander S. Holub P.h.D

This is the worst of all for it is so famous and well known. The first half of this seemingly impossible prediction was completed by the "stalemate" he mentioned. Where the mainland city was utterly destroyed, "Not one stone left upon the other" and " the fields were sown with salt so that nothing would grow there." This reduced the city to the small island off shore.

Alexander the Great completed the second half of it when he "took the stones of the city and cast them into the sea.", "and then that proud city shall be brought low." It even correctly predicted "that fisherman would spread their nets to dry upon it.". Which was the case when the site was discovered.

This is one of the best documented predictions to come true in the whole bible. The wording of the prediction was complex and exact, and seemed impossible to fulfill at the time it was made. This one, more than any other, makes me doubt the validity of his work.

Alexander S. Holub sounds like he has a personal agenda, and twists the facts to fit his vision.

All of the above is just off the top of my head. With research I could find even more evidence against his viewpoint. Stick with Campbell, I have found nothing wrong with his work.

I have also spoken with both the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, and both run from me pretty fast too. My house is on their black list.

Aireal

[northjetty]

The entry of a Satan is supposed to be based on the Hebrews coming into contact with Angra Mainyu via being in Babylon and interacting with the Persians. 1200 BC Zoroastrianism turning into the 538 BC appearance of Satan in the Hebrew tradition. I've learned from many different sources that all of the stories that deal with Lucifer being cast out of heaven were 'late additions' that came along to 'support the story' after it was created. That's why there's no mention of the 'Fall of Lucifer' in the Genesis myth as I'm to understand - people have to look back and read it into the story after the fact.

Now, I'm curious as what Holub's agenda is myself? He does seem to have an agenda, but it seems to be very much like our agenda here in some way in terms of riding the world of 'past myth's and customs' that have proven to be incorrect in running society.

I've read another book called "Gospel Truth" (leave out 'The') and it was written a little 'less aggressively', but it too hit on some of the same points. Satan is always a late edition to the mythology. The old prophecies were twisted by the new testament writers to make them seem to fit the Jesus story. Since the Gospels were written after the Epistles it shows a sense of 'after the fact' additions with the addition of the 'virgin birth story' and so on that are missing from Paul's earlier writings. Then there's the issue of the Q-gospel and the lot. Adding the virgin birth story has a way of making the character of Jesus seem not so human, not so much like a relgular guy having a divine realization. It seems to cause a big separation between the character in the story and the masses.

I have the 'theory' that we were never meant to think that these people in the stories were literal at all. Since they correspond to ancient understandings, I think that they are just a way of trying 'preserve ancient metaphorical knowledge'. We went astray by reading these things as 'literal' over the years and don't see 'key points' to the stories such as, Jesus being an ancient lesson on the 'relationship' between 'eternity and time'. When we concern ourselves with seeing the story as talking about some one from a long time ago, separate from ourselves entirely, we are being 'received' by ourselves and the leaders that promote this sort of idea.

It's clearly taking about a 'normal man', here on 'earth', who has the 'realization' that even here as a 'mortal man', he is of the 'eternal', or the 'Father' as the metaphor goes. This is an example of how a 'follower' of this 'man' should see the 'world around themselves', as they too are sons and daughters of 'eternity', or the 'Father' - John 10:30 "I and the Father are one"

That makes a lot of sense in this day and age when we know as a fact, that 'Eternal space' is present in all of the 'finite forms of time' - the metaphorical aspect is sound with respect to this physics. That's where I'm trying to go with it all. This is very clearly the ancient Egyptian understanding that 'man is cosmos', 'cosmos is man', cosmos is eternal, thus man is of eternity.

So the literalism 'deceives' us from ever grabbing onto the 'actual subject matter' at play in these stories, thus the 'literal institutional church systems' of the world today are preaching a 'deception', in the name of 'truth' to the masses. Eventually this would all fall to ground as we learn more about the truth. They always said that there would be a 'Falling of great Babylon' in the future. If that refers to the 'confusion' associated with misreading metaphor, then 'Babylon' is falling right now as I'm seeing this. If Babylon (Babel) is confusion, and confusion is the idea of separateness, then Babylon is certainly falling down in physics as well.

north jetty/space

[Aireal]

Northjetty

It matters little to me what people like Holub think. My main concern is how it might impact W.S.M.

A lot of the viewers of this forum just happen to be of the Christian faith.

Coming here and reading how Holub thinks that their religion is little more than a hodge podge of concepts stolen from other religions will not endure them to W.SM. nor make them wish to learn more about it.

Anyone who has ever read the Bible can clearly see through his lies. And some Christians actually do read it. You don't even need to read the whole Bible, just the short Book of Job will disclose his lies and quotes taken out of context.

Holubs agenda is clear from his work. He is anti christian and will do his best to discredit them and the Bible. I would be just as upset if he attacked any religion unjustly. With the scant "evidence" he gives, his "conclusions" could be applied to any religion. Islam as the same roots, but if he attacked them in this manner, there would be a price on his head. So maybe he just hates all religions, Christians are just the safest to pick on. Turn the other cheek and all that.

The Bible, like all holy books, has both literal and metaphorical aspects. The line that divides these is not clear cut. Many things lie on the border, like the virgin birth. While highly unlikely, it is not outside the realm of possibility. While rare, such virgin births have happened in the animal kingdom in recorded history. It just happened again about a week ago at a zoo. I saw in in the news, but paid little attention as this is not news to me. In the early part of the last century there was an unusual medical case where a baby girl was born pregnant. So while we have no recorded cases of "virgin births" among humans, it still lies within the realm of possibility.

So perhaps the "deception" lies with the reader instead of with the holy books. This seems to be the case with Holub at least.

Aireal