#1 science #2 speculations about the science

[northjetty]

Hey guys, there's been a few new people frequenting the forum lately. I would just like to take this opportunity to explain the content of many of the threads on the forum. As you can see, if you've read through several of the threads, there is some pretty 'heavy speculating' going on. It's fun and enternaining some times to look at the various ways that the new cosmology effects the different aspects of society. Religious belief, our world governments, the "average Joe" guy on the street etc. The site is geared to address things like religion and social governing based on the physical knowledge of 'waves in space', rather than post-modern uncertainty concerning truth.

Obviously 'waves in space' is the primary focus here, so if we are going on about religion, government, or some other such thing, we should make the effort to explain how this relates to 'waves in space'. That's it. This isn't actually hard to do because 'waves in space' line up quite nicely with just about anything. Consciousness, mind, God, and 'personal creative abilities' are the hot topic right now in society. Wsm has a perspective on all of the above and it's the perspective of how they relate to 'waves in space'. I believe that having the scientific understanding is first and foremost, then looking at how it relates to other various things second.

"Religion has to accept the science of the day, and penetrate it to the mystery"-Campbell

"The only conflict is between the science of 2,000 BC. verses the science of 2,000 AD"-Campbell

I must confess that I believe that the 'science' is the issue of importance. It's very simple to reconcile the religious aspects of a new cosmology. Many people frown on this philosophy in the religious community and they feel that science has to be 'secondary' to religion. That is ultimately incorrect at best according to my knowledge of how we are to view a mythology. On the main site you find that it is expressed that we need to base our societies on truth, rather than past myths and customs. This is correct, we've been basing whole societies on literalizing and concretizing mythology. That is an obvious error.

The proper mythological expressions are conveying a relationship between the 'infinite and the finite'. We have not been basing our societies on that aspect, only the concretizing fundamental aspects that have come out of these metaphors. If we were to base our societies on 'waves in space', we would have purified our mythological understanding in one single stroke. This is true, mythology is all about living in the 'awareness' of how the 'finite', relates to the 'infinite'. If Geoff had his way , and we were to base society on the 'physical knowledge' of 'waves in space', everything else falls into place as I see it. This is obviously what one should expect from an accurate description of physical reality. I'm pretty impressed so far.

north jetty/the cosmos

[nisarga]

Hi NJ,

Here is the critical point as I see it...

Is it 'waves in space' or 'waves of space'...

the difference between the two expressions above is huge because...

If it is 'waves in space' then there is the appearance of two things: waves and what the waves are contained within (I know that WSM says that there is one thing Space with properties of a wave medium - yet this statement appears as a hedging - it does not directly say that Space expresses itself as waves, rather that Space has a property called waves).

On the other hand if it is 'waves of space' then it is clear that there is one thing 'space' expressing itself as waves, space and all other 'things'.

You know from my previous comments that I like to speak of things as 'Breathing Space' or 'Pregnant Emptyness'.

And 'Breathing Space' is very easily confirmed experientially by simply asking folks to observe their breathing and by experiments like 'holding their breath' as this reveals that the essence of their being expresses itself as 'Breathing Space' (thus there is nothing to believe, no symbolism to translate, and no complicated science/math is required to demonstrate this self-evident fact).

Namaste'
James

[northjetty]

James, you've come into this forum with a better understanding of the wsm than most. How you've incorporated this physics into yoga practice is impressive to say the least. 'Waves in space' is a term that I walked into upon joining this forum. I believe that Geoff has designated the term. I would agree that 'waves of space' would clarify things a bit further and it's a simple description. This term is entirely reversible as well, 'space of waves'. We do use the term 'space waves' to be very specific about it, but 'waves in space' is the usual conversational terminology.

We've had people come onto the forum in the past who couldn't get beyond seeing the 'waves' and 'space', 'medium and motion', as two separate things. They're rejecting the idea of 'one thing' existing. They usually argue about it over and over until they finally leave. Perhaps it boils down to the choice of terminology as you've suggested. Let's see what the others think about it, ultimately let's see how Geoff likes it?


north jetty/the cosmos

[nisarga]

Hi again NJ,

Yes. Any confusion about duality is clearly and accurately resolved with the understanding of the wave nature of things as a wave itself has complimentary extremes. And there are many terms that accurately describe the extremes as crest~trough; rise~fall; in~out; yin~yang... etc.

Namaste'
James

ps (added as an edit) - for me things are 'waves of space' as I see Space and its expressions as extremes of a wave.

[northjetty]

Yeah James, I can see that we've both had a very similar recognition when viewing this cosmology. I'd say that our 'diagram's' of an 'electron SSW center', simply point to beyond themselves as 'finite', to the 'infinite' formless space of which they are made of. Those of us who know the eastern doctrines see this very clearly. The myths have huge issues with concretization and misinterpretation, so they have to be viewed in 'hind site' to the evolving science of the day and not 'vise versa' in my view. I differ with many of the Campbell associates over this issue. Due to the 'popular uncertainty' of particle physics science, certain religious favoring people have formed the opinion that they have taken a 'dominant position' over 'science'-they feel that the myths are more valid than the science. They feel that science can not correctly address true reality, thus science is somehow irrelevant.

The problem here is that science has now solved it's 'uncertainty' issue by defining the electron. Suddenly science does explain observable reality. And space has a 'spirit of motion' about itself, a wave vibration of a 'perpetual nature', thus it corresponds to the 'alpha and omega' principle of 'non-origin God' that the religions hold as well.

There's a few religious people that have caught onto this in a few of my conversations, but they seem to struggle to believe that science could possibly be dealing in terms of 'absolute truth' nowadays. This is odd, when the 'absolute truth' of most 'beliefs' is that 'eternity and time' are 'one', as is sciences new understanding that the 'finite form of matter' and the 'infinite non-form of space' are 'one'.

That's the main thing that can reconcile 'belief and science' in my view. I've had to break it down that far in order for anyone to even take it seriously from the religious community-I've had to get down to simplicity. But the connection is there, it exists, and if this cosmology takes off in leaps and bounds then it can easily be integrated into the 'existing belief's' of just about anyone.


Final Speculation on the Origin of "Consciousness".

"It is evident that the matter waves of the universe are the underlying source of the action we observe in our human energy world, even though the matter waves are unseen - like the puppeteer behind the curtain. This process is available for use by nature in designing our evolutionary development. Did it happen? If it did, then it is not unreasonable that our brain and other parts of our neural physiology are interconnected by an unseen communication network that coordinates and regulates behavior of certain parts of the body. Since energy exchange is not involved at this matter wave level, we would not have a sensory impression of logical thought, only an awareness of ourselves and our body. More research is needed to know, but in view of the intricacy of our neural structures, the work will not be easy.

The range of experiments needed to verify consciousness or extra-sensory perception is almost as large as human imagination. An example is the philosophy of my daughter Jennifer, who was the illustrator and artist for my book (Wolff, 1990) which first described the wave structure of matter. After reading the book, my daughter has acquired new beliefs on consciousness. As a scientist, I cannot propose beliefs not based on laboratory facts, but my daughter has no such inhibitions. She uses the matter wave theory to explain things that had formerly puzzled her. She explains, "Consciousness can be active. If I pray that a sickfriend's cancer will be cured, I visualize my thoughts traveling on matter waves that connect my mind to my sick friend's mind."

The matter wave theory has been happily integrated into her existing beliefsystem. She says "I just ignored the complex math, I don't understand it. Perhaps what we think of as God, is only the interconnections between us at this wave/particle level" and " I don't care if it is God or matter waves, all I need to know is that all human beings are connected to each other and that prayer and my human thoughts are powerful and using the consciousness of my mind communicates them for me."-Milo Wolff

north jetty/the cosmos

[Bill Back]

“When you say that you are in it but not of it, you are putting yourself in a place called hell.
When you speak, speak the truth, and change that truth into love and maybe our great great great grandchildren will tell.”
Always , Steve Wonder

We are not particles in space. We are not people in God. We are OF space and God….

“Teach your children to go fishing with the mind” Jimmy Buffett , Beach House on the Moon

Learning how to think is learning how to live.

[nisarga]

Hey Bill,

It follows from this quote of Aristotle

"The first philosophy (Metaphysics) is universal and is exclusively concerned with primary substance. ... And here we will have the science to study that which is, both in its essence and in the properties which, just as a thing that is, it has. (Aristotle, 340BC)"

then, from this site...

"The Wave Structure of Matter (WSM) is the most simple language for describing Reality, founded on One thing existing, Space, with Properties of a Continuous Infinite Eternal Wave Medium."

and here's the tricky part (Aristotle's satement with essence and properties transposed) just as a thing that has, it is... this is true with the understanding that what a thing has is its property, or substance, rather than its essence; thus its sub-stance comes out of its essence as its expression and therefore it is it in that way (like an egotistical expression as jealousy is a person's expression yet this is not the person's essence)

since Space has the property of a Continuous Infinite Wave Medium then SPACE EXPRESSES ITSELF AS A WAVE... in this way it can be stated that SPACE IS A WAVE.

Namaste'
James

ps - I prefer to state things slightly differently than WSM as I feel it makes it more accurate... I feel that essence is Space; sub-stance is what comes out of or is the expression of Space and that presence is Source. In this light presence is the Middle Way - it is stillness as what is current and it is the motion of the unfolding current.

[Steve Anthony]

Hi Guys,

[Bill Back]

I see Space as Spirit, and WSM as the Way it manifests.

[northjetty]

Here's another look at the direction that Milo see's the wsm connection to consciousness. This is an interesting quote.


"... Buddhist thought is tremendously rich in the arena of human consciousness and its connectedness with nature. Notions of the interconnectedness of all phenomenon occur in many spiritual contexts. For example, there is the doctrine that 'all living creatures in the world' have an 'inner' or psychological 'being'. This is is based on the idea that there is one fundamental, 'universal substance of life'. Spinoza also taught that 'spiritual phenomena' are attributes of 'one underlying substance'.

Scientific evidence of the origin of consciousness or the substance of life is difficult to isolate. Thus these ideas are regarded as 'speculative'. Nevertheless, speculation is often 'productive', and a 'powerful motive' force for 'scientific inquiry' as well as a 'guide' in 'religious life'. However scientific results only happen when you are 'clever enough' to create models and/or hypotheses based on one or more implications of your speculation which are capable of being tested. 'Caution' is needed before drawing conclusions. You shouldn't write checks with your speculations, that you can't cover with your science!

There are other reasons for focusing on matter waves. The funded Human Genome Project ambitiously proposes to completely unravel four billion genes of human chromosomes which determine the structure of our bodies. This structure is the hardware of our 'body computer'. Where is the software? We are born with many built-in emotions and survival mechanisms which are 'software programs'. Like 'consciousness', they occupy our 'mind' but have no 'identified physical location'. Since our unconscious brain and its peripherals are the 'CPU' of our body computer, then 'matter waves' could be their 'internal communications mechanism'. These waves are 'not limited' in their 'range', so it becomes 'conceivable' that 'external mind-to-mind' and 'mind-to-matter communication' can also occur. Survival is the primary goal of each organism, thus internal communication would be the predominant role waves while external communication would be rare. This may explain the greater effectiveness of meditation"-Milo Wolff


north jetty/the cosmos

[nisarga]

Hey Guys,

Yes Steve - I feel that yoga is the best thing that has come out of the Indian continent.

And it is for just the reason you stated as it is a means for folks to experience things for themselves.

Yet there is a caution which is that yoga is taught by humans and many of these humans 'teach' their own version of the delusion that permeates much of society.

Thus it is significant to find an authentic teacher - one like Lama Anagarika Govinda or my teacher, Jean Klein (Jean passed on/away in 1998).

Namaste'
James

[Steve Anthony]

[northjetty]

It seems like we've described everything as eternal, and learned that nothingness doesn't apply to existence-everything derives from a 'continuous wave medium'. Here's a look at how the wsm cosmology applies to the theory of everything. As it has been stated here in the past, we have a theory that describes everything as 'existing space waves'. But then what? Here's Milo's summary:

"Theories of Everything"

"There is a story about a Newtonian physicist who challenged the idea that the Earth was supported on Atlas's shoulders. He asked, "What is Atlas standing on?" The reply, "On a turtle." "And what is the turtle standing on?" "On another turtle." It was turtles all the way down. The physicist scoffed and thought he had won the argument.

Have we finally found the theory of everything? In my opinion the search has no end. True, wave-structure has identified length, time, and mass. It explains the origins of the laws, resolves the wave-particle duality and other paradoxes, and provides a new tool for science. This might convince us that we finally understand everything. But do we? Inevitably a new question pops up: "How do the properties and structure of the quantum wave medium arise?" This new question is created by the old question which we thought we had so cleverly explained. Again it is, "Turtles all the way down." The next frontier is to learn and understand the quantum wave medium."-Milo Wolff


We understand the quantum wave medium as eternally existing. So I guess that he's calling that "turtles all the way down"?- 'One thing' all the way down in other words. It can be no other way really, we need 'a priori' space/medium to exist now in order for us to be here thinking about it. I wonder what he's proposing that we need to 'further learn' and 'understand' about the 'quantum wave medium'? If we understand that it is infinite, non-form, ever-present, boundless, and an originless essence, then what else can be associated with the space wave medium? Any speculations?

north jetty/the cosmos

[Rob Peritz]

Hey guys,
I hope ya'll don't mind me jumping in here....

Northjetti wrote;

[northjetty]

We will undoubtedly learn more about the 'medium' in the future. Milo feels that there will 'never' be a time when science has figured out 'everything', "a journey without end", which directly contradicts Dawkins for the most part-Dawkins is saying that science will figure out everthing one day. If I were to choose between the two options here, I'm far more comfortable taking advise from Wolff's 'wave physics outlook' over Dawkins 'particle physics outlook' any day of the week. So here in this quote we're left to understand that there is far 'more going on' with the 'continuous wave medium' than we will ever be able to learn according to Wolff-there is an infinite mystery.

This summarized what I was wondering when I first came into this forum with the "western idea of a God/wsm" thread. I understand existence in terms of recognizing the 'mystery factor' as ultimate, and this theory seemed to solve the 'mystery factor' at first glance.

I tried to see if some one could figure it out where the 'mystery' is in this cosmology model on the Campbell forum and it stumped every one of them as well. Until I got through 'Milo's articles' I had no real understanding of how to penetrate this cosmology to it's 'mystery'

I had speculated that the 'mystery' is associated with the 'non-origin of space', just as the 'mystery' of a given 'God' in mythology is always tied into the 'perpetual existence' of that 'God'. All in all, I believe that my 'speculation' is in alignment with Milo's 'turtles all the way down" approach. I'm surprised that no one here presented me with this quotation early on, like when I first proposed the question of how 'mystery' applies to this cosmology model

Here's a summary of how mystery is the absolute in terms of human concetpualization and understanding. It's the final recognition of one's relationship to the whole as it goes.

The Power of Myth, p.210-211

Campbell: Now this ultimate ground of all being can be experienced in two senses, one as with 'form' and the other as 'without form'. When you experience your god as with form, there is your envisioning mind, and there is the god. There is a 'subject', and there is an 'object'. But the ultimate 'mystical goal' is to be united with one's god. With that, duality is transcended and 'forms disappear'. There is nobody there, 'no god', 'no you'. Your 'mind', going 'past all concepts', has 'dissolved in identification' with the ground of your own being, because that to which the metaphorical image of your GOD refers is the ultimate MYSTERY of your OWN BEING, which is the 'mystery' of the being of the WORLD as well. And so THIS is IT."


Mythology was designed to address the 'mystery' of being and bring us to a level of 'self-identification' with that 'mystery'-the absolute. Physics is now showing that everything is interconnected and one through the continuous space wave medium, thus the 'space wave medium' is actually our 'true identity'. From what I'm understanding from Milo's final realization through wave physics is that the 'space wave medium' is a 'mystery' with no end in sight. So to bring in the ultimate mythological realization, we are to 'self-identify' with the 'mystery' of the 'continuous wave medium' according my understanding of the medium as being our true 'self'. This is simply a very strait-forward and direct way of looking at either 'mysticism' or 'science', and arriving at the very same 'self-realization' of absolute 'mystery' when trying to wrap it all up.

Whether people are aware of the truth of mythic messages, or whether they are aware of the truth of physical science is irrelevant-The truth doesn't depend on popular thought. Both the wsm cosmology and Campbell's mythology teachings are unpopular and unheard of for the most part in society today. This is an obvious 'disadvantage' to 'society'. Ultimately the truth is to be found in recognizing 'mystery'-That is absolute. Any one interested in finding truth will certainly arrive at this point if they persist in asking the right questions long enough. So we can base societies on the truth about space by connecting the origins of the natural laws to the 'continuous wave medium' and interconnecting everything. Then, we should probably rightfully acknowledge the 'mystery factor' of the continuous interconnectivity of space and be in alignment with true science and true mythology at the same time-this seems like the right balance at this point.

north jetty/the cosmos

[haselhurst]

Hi All,

This quote from Milo is dated 1990 and misleading.

"How do the properties and structure of the quantum wave medium arise?"

He wrote that as a maths physicist before we met and he was introduced to philosophy and metaphysics.

From metaphysics it is clear that one thing existing eternally is the most simple (indeed necessary) foundation for reality.

That one thing is Space, it has properties of of a wave medium (it is vibrating due to its wave motion).

So where is any evidence that these properties arose?
That they did not always exist!

Please be careful using language.
You will get sucked in arguing about things that do not exist otherwise.
That question of Milo's is misleading, as it has the hidden assumption that the properties arose rather than they always existed.

The correct question is.
What are the complete properties of space?
We know it is a wave medium, that it is nearly rigid (slightly elastic) continuously connected (not made of parts / particles).

But how exactly does space propagate a wave, and what are the resultant properties of the waves (how do they change velocity with wave amplitude and space density)? Please search / read site for answers!

Does Space have more properties to explain our human emotions?

I am not sure - try to keep it simple - not add more things unless absolutely necessary.

Cheers,
Geoff

[northjetty]

"Does Space have more properties to explain our human emotions?"-Haselhurst

That's tough! but it shows our limitations-the remaining mystery

Geoff, thanks for the break down. I'm going to check the site and see what I come up with if anything.

As far as the theory of everything goes, was Milo right about it being a never ending search?

Rob and Steve said that it wasn't the theory of everything from early on, but I didn't see Milo's personal evalution of it until just recently. The big question here for me is whether we will always have mystery involved in science or not? Most people feel that there will always be a mystery no matter how much we learn about reality. I wonder whether that's true-whether Dawkins is right and science will figure everything out one day, or whether Milo is right and we will never figure everything out exactly?

Since you've furthered the wsm beyond the basic concept that Milo started with in the beginning (I've read his letters to you-very impressive) I'm wondering whether you hold his opinion on science being on a 'never ending search' or not? I have to gain some solid ground on this issue for my personal understanding and writing. Is it possible to know everything about the medium at some point?

north jetty/the cosmos

[Steve Anthony]

I do not feel that it is a question of following who we believe to be 'right', as this just pits people against each other. You follow a certain person, doctrine, thing, and you also automatically oppose their perceived opposites, causing conflict. Whereas by following only Truth, not only do you avoid 'opinions' but you can also only oppose falsity.

Only Truth is 'right', and we must find it for (and especially within!) ourselves, because no-one is infallible.


There is no such thing as a 'theory of everything'. There is the Truth of everything, and then there are Man's 'theories'. A 'theory' can never be Reality.

I would say that it is possible to know how Reality necessarily works, but not the Infinitude of what exists within it. This is the 'mystery', the never ending search for what else can happen to waves of Space. Just wandering in the local forest shows me something different everyday, something uniquely beautiful in itself. In this way, virtually every step is a mystery, a chance to experience something more about this strange and wondrous thing we call 'life'. What then of the Infinite Cosmos?

Steve.

[Steve Anthony]

"I do not feel that it is a question of following who we believe to be 'right', as this just pits people against each other. You follow a certain person, doctrine, thing, and you also automatically oppose their perceived opposites, causing conflict. Whereas by following only Truth, not only do you avoid 'opinions' but you can also only oppose falsity.

Only Truth is 'right', and we must find it for (and especially within!) ourselves, because no-one is infallible."-Steve

So what is the truth that you are referring to here Steve? You're using the word 'truth' very vaguely here. What is the 'truth' that is 'right'?

Do we have the ability to 'eliminate mystery' and learn 'everything' about the continuous wave medium with science, or are we limited and can never truly know 'everything' about the 'continuous wave medium' with our sciences? We need to 'know the truth' of this issue in order to align ourselves with it don't we? If we already knew 'which' of these 'two assumptions' is 'right' then we would have the clear truth.

I guess that it boils down to whether we can answer the questions that Geoff presented about the wave medium or not?

If we can solve those questions then we've solved the current 'mystery of the medium', unless there are more questions that pop up 'after' we've 'solved' the ones the Geoff has presented in the above post.

If it's possible to 'run out of questions' about the 'continuous wave medium' at some point, then we logically run out of 'mystery' concerning the 'medium', thus we would 'know everything' about the 'medium' and the 'mystery' would be over-this would favor Richard Dawkins perspective on science.

This seems to oppose most peoples belief about our human conceptual limitations. So I'm curious as to how 'possible' it is to curb the 'mystery of existence'- as a speculation. Dawkins seems to have a tremendous 'faith' that science will curb 'mystery' one day in his book-I wonder how valid that statement actually is? As I'm seeing this play out, it all seems to rest on 'whether or not' it's possible to 'fully discover everything about the medium or not'-This is the final speculation.

north jetty/the cosmos

[Steve Anthony]

Bill Back

PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:14 pm


Discussing truth is confusing. We all know and are the truth without words. Stop thinking with words, they cover the truth.

Use as few words as possible and some of the truth will shine through.

[haselhurst]

Hi Steve,

A bit of a rambling reply!

Your apology is appreciated - but most importantly, it is appreciated that you are trying to improve the structure and functioning of this forum.
Really appreciated.

I see no problems when considering the fact that most humans do not have the intellectual skills to work out reality / truth for themselves.
It is simply a truth of our evolution - history shows this, our present world shows this.

And here I will meander a little - with a more personal view.

It makes me sad when I think of 1984, as I always related to Winston Smith, a thoughtful outsider. And one central message of the book - the masses are controlled by a manipulative ruling class - and they are too 'stupid' to realise and rise up against it.

I believe I am like Einstein on this. That I prefer my own company and thoughts most of the time, find the daily chatter of people a bit dull and pointless, lacking any concept of truth and its importance, living based upon their primitive senses, more akin to how animals live.
But I also have a deep care that Nature and humans should live in sensible intelligent ways that make most people's lives rich and meaningful, healthy and happy.
Humans can live in far better ways by living closer to Nature, more in harmony with Nature, more in harmony with how they evolved to live.

How do we achieve this. Well my hope is that enough sensible logical people will find us that over time the knowledge of what WSM deduces will exponentially grow and make it obvious it is true (over next 30 years you would think - maybe ten with internet!)

And this will correct errors of Science, that ripple out and will improve all areas of society (education clearly being central).
But for most people education is really a form of cultural programming. i.e. It is more realistic to think of humans as programmed machines, not too different than a computer in many ways (very different in some).

As Napoleon said;
"Humans have two levers - fear and self interest."
Our current societies still reflect this (market economics and war).

Plato knew what the correct solution was;
"Till philosophers are kings, or kings are philosophers there is no hope for humanity".

This just means that until we found our societies on truth and reality, we will be manipulated by people like Hitler (and Bush, and Howard, and big corporations,...).

So my point is not to allow tyrants, by only allowing truth.
(Truth and reality are the tyrants!)

But really we are showing that science does actually work - so our societies will be science based / ruled rather than myth based.
A society founded on truth and reality would reject a Hitler (he was aware of the power of nationalism - and to manipulate masses with repetitive slogans that appealed to these instincts).

The truth is that we have evolved to rape and pillage both nature and other tribes to a certain extent - and this works OK in our ancestry, but now destroys the planet and our future. Typical results of a plague / overpopulation.

That while our humans 'cultural truths' masquerade as real truths about reality then this conflict between 'truth' and reality will continue to harm us.

But science would realise this - and take logical steps to prevent it.
e.g.
Laws to limit population, laws to ensure Nature is rehabilitated, laws to ensure that people get enough exercise and do things that make them happy and healthy, laws to ensure food is clean and healthy.

But these laws need to be smart, evolutionary ecology approach, evolve in over decades / centuries.

e.g. Petrol / diesel is highly taxed, extra profit goes to subsidising clean energy research and tax incentives for production / sale (e.g. clean energy companies get tax free incentive for 20 years).

Sport / activities that include exercise / work are a daily part of school curriculum.
Bicycles and internet access computers are mass produced by society and given to all people.
All commercial TV networks are required to show public service announcements that educate people to the harm of watching too much crap TV and commercials.
Harm tax applied to products that are bad for us / our environment - funds a benefit bonus / tax incentive for good businesses.

This all relates to my original aim 15 years ago - to write a book about utopia based on evolution (as a way of helping Nature). All too soon I realised that I needed to know what was evolving to really do justice to such a book (I wrote half a page!).

So there is much to write up into a socio political utopia treatise founded on truth and reality. I hope that our emerging group here will jointly do this over time.

So I don't see any problems with this. People will be educated to the truth that they exist as wave structures of space - that you are really the waving space you exist in.
This will naturally lead to a greater evolutionary / ecological awareness which is clearly necessary.

And Steve this is written quickly, abruptly. I am not arrogant at all - but very practical and realistic I think (which may come across as a bit brutal and cold hearted at times). My motive is to do good things to help humanity, and that truth and reality must be the foundations for this work.

Geoff


One of my favourite quotes from Hume (which you have no doubt read)!

"And though the philosopher may live remote from business, the genius of philosophy, if carefully cultivated by several, must gradually diffuse itself throughout the whole society, and bestow a similar correctness on every art and calling." (David Hume, 1737)


PS - Enjoying all your thoughts on mystery.

Steve's comment is very relevant.

"I would say that it is possible to know how Reality necessarily works, but not the Infinitude of what exists within it. This is the 'mystery', the never ending search for what else can happen to waves of Space."

As I see it we should be more precise with the word 'mystery'. Surely this means that we cannot / do not know 'something' about 'something'.
So until you explain which two 'somethings' you are referring too it probably does not have much meaning.

e.g. If the mystery is to know the future motion of matter in space, then Steve is correct - we can never know this to infinity.

Likewise it is mystery as to why space exists with wave properties that allow us / complex thinking life to evolve. We know it is true - our own existence confirms this.
But as there can be no reason for what exists infinitely and eternally (reality) then this is a mystery - it has no answer.

As to the properties of Space, there is currently a mystery as to how waves cause human emotions and mind representations like colors and tastes. Whether this can be solved I do not know.

Interesting way of viewing things though - their mystery!

[northjetty]

"Likewise it is mystery as to why space exists with wave properties that allow us / complex thinking life to evolve. We know it is true - our own existence confirms this.
But as there can be no reason for what exists infinitely and eternally (reality) then this is a mystery - it has no answer"-haselhurst

Great! Geoff that statement puts you in accord with the 'mystery' traditions. It's that simple. This understanding allows space and all of the science associated with space to "transcend" properly-to flow from sheer 'mystery' as the absolute. The religions in the world can understand this-The mystery of space is the very same mystery of our own lives and being. This is how Campbell taught the 'truth' of what the mythologies are actually addressing-what spiritual insight actually is. Your above statement can be attached to these truth oriented lessons on how to read a mythology. This is the important subject matter that I was asking for, thanks.

Here's the four functions of mythology:

1. "The first function is that of reconciling 'consciousness' to the preconditions of its 'own existence'-that is, of aligning waking 'consciousness' to the 'mysterium tremedum', 'mystery' of this universe, as it 'is'. If one can not affirm 'that', one is not affirming 'life', for that is what life 'is'. Whether one thinks of the mythology in terms of the affirmation of the world as it is, the negation of the world as it is, or the restoration of the world to what it ought to be, the first function of mythology is to arouse in the 'mind' a sense of the 'awe' before this situation through one of three ways of participating in it: by moving out, moving in, or 'effecting a correction'. This I would regard as the essentially religious function of mythology-that is, the mystical function, which represents the discovery and recognition of the dimension of the mystery of being".

2. "The second function of a traditional mythology is 'interpretive', to present a consistent 'image' of the order of the 'cosmos'. At about 32,000 BC the concept of a 'cosmic order' came into being, along with the notion that society and men and women should participate in that cosmic order because it is, in fact, the basic order of one's life. In the period of the high civilizations, one comes to the experience of a great 'mystery' that manifests itself so 'impersonally' that one cannot even pray to it, one can only be in 'awe' of it. The 'Gods' themselves are simply 'agents' of that 'great high mystery', the 'secret' of which is found in 'mathmatics'. This can still be observed in our sciences, in which the mathmatics of 'time and space' are regarded as the 'veil' through which the 'great mystery', the tremendum, shows itself".

3. "The third function of a traditional mythology is to validate and support a specific moral order, that order of the society out of which that mythology arose.
all mythologies come to us in the field of a certain specific culture and must speak to us through the 'language and symbols' of that culture. In traditional mythologies, the notion is really that the moral order is organically related to or somehow of a piece with the cosmic order. Through this third function, mythology reinforces the moral order by shaping the person to the demands of a specific geographically and historically conditioned social group".

4."The fourth function of traditional mythology is to carry the individual through the various stages and crises of life-that is, to help persons grasp the unfolding of life with integrity. This wholeness means that individuals will experience events, from birth through midlife to death, as in accord with, first, 'themselves', and, secondly, with their 'culture', as well as, thirdly, 'the universe', and, lastly, with that 'mystery' beyond themselves and all things."-Joseph Campbell


"Enjoying all your thoughts on mystery.

Steve's comment is very relevant.

"I would say that it is possible to know how Reality necessarily works, but not the Infinitude of what exists within it. This is the 'mystery', the never ending search for what else can happen to waves of Space."

As I see it we should be more precise with the word 'mystery'. Surely this means that we cannot / do not know 'something' about 'something'.
So until you explain which two 'somethings' you are referring too it probably does not have much meaning.

e.g. If the 'mystery' is to know the 'future motion of matter in space', then Steve is correct - 'we can never know this to infinity'.

Likewise it is 'mystery' as to 'why space exists with wave properties that allow us / complex thinking life to evolve'. We know it is true - our own existence confirms this.
But as there can be 'no reason' for what exists 'infinitely and eternally' (reality) then this is a 'mystery' - it has no answer.

As to the properties of Space, there is currently a 'mystery' as to how waves cause 'human emotions' and 'mind representations' like colors and tastes. Whether this can be solved I do not know.

Interesting way of viewing things though - their mystery" - Haselhurst



north jetty/space

[Steve Anthony]

Firstly, Geoff, you surely know that I do not think you are arrogant? It is not people who are 'such and such', but their thoughts/actions and current collective 'beliefs' that lead them to do or say 'such and such'. People are not born as unchanging things that just 'are what they are', we have a remarkable ability to adapt, and we retain it all through our lives, if only we lived in cultures which promoted this kind of thinking.

The 'individuation process' that Jung's work was mostly based around, is a prime example of how we can change ourselves, and so be more receptive to our own most necessary changes. And I am living testament to the authenticity of it; now openly happy to admit to my own erroneous thinking.



"Likewise it is mystery as to why space exists with wave properties that allow us / complex thinking life to evolve..."

It is the 'why' that causes confusion. 'Why' is Space infinite? Or 'why' does it move? Both of these questions are not relevant. Space is what exists. 'How?', we can discuss, and eventually come to a conclusion to (WSM). But 'why'? - Because it can and therefore does. There can be no other reason than that. Once you understand 'How', the 'why' is no longer relevant. 'Mystery', 'paradox', 'problem', etc, these are all simple Human failures to know, but rather than accept this, we like to save face and pretend that some 'exterior thing' must be at 'fault' somehow. This is a direct result of being indoctrinated into the mythology that we are in some way 'superior' to the rest of Nature, and that it is our 'right' to 'conquer HER'!

So, the 'arrogance' is ingrained into our very language, as you might expect from 2000+ years of class, social and political division/rule.



Such questions lose all meaning, just as mathematics does, when attempting to describe the Infinite, as there ultimately isn't one. We chase an invisible carrot called 'why?'


Steve.

[northjetty]

Steve, Any attempt to 'wrap it all up' will be fogged with an 'absolute mystery' (mysterium tremendum) until some one comes along and eliminates the 'mystery' out of existence- Eliminates the 'non-origin' aspect of existence. Look very closely here:

"Likewise it is 'mystery' as to 'why space exists with wave properties' that allow us / complex thinking life to evolve. We know it is true - our own existence confirms this".-Haselhurst

The 'mystery of space', and the earth itself, is the very 'mystery' of our own being, and it's the 'mystery' of the being of 'all nature'. Existence simply 'is', as is stated above, which is actually what is being touched on with the Goddess "ISIS", or IS-IS-take a close look.

There's an inscription that reads " I Isis, am all that ever was, is, or will be". This is the early form of what would evolve into 'Yahweh', the God of Israel,Christianity, and Islam at a later date in history.

"Yahweh", as a name, translates as "I Am", or "I will be" (YHWH, OR AHYH). Obviously existence "was, is, and will be"-this was realized by 'deep thought' concerning 'existence' from ancient times-3,200 BC or so during the emergence of high cultures. <